seanabrahams: Pardon my tardiness [6:46pm] mike_ray: howdy sean [6:46pm] seanabrahams: In the middle of something [6:46pm] JedBrensinger: hi sean [6:46pm] mike_ray: your tardiness is excused [6:46pm] seanabrahams: Evening gents [6:47pm] You were promoted to operator by mike_ray. [6:47pm] seanabrahams: So, regarding my project with non-profit status, we need to pick a name for it... A while ago I recommended Walden Tree. Opinions? [6:47pm] You are now known as SeanAbrahams. [6:47pm] mike_ray: I rather liked the name used by Matt Israel, it was real generic [6:47pm] mike_ray: but Walden Tree is as good as any I suppose [6:49pm] SeanAbrahams: I don't recall the name he used [6:49pm] SeanAbrahams: I'll be afk in and out, sorry [6:51pm] mike_ray: Association for Social Design (ASD) [7:15pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo joined the chat room. [7:15pm] JedBrensinger: hi elysha [7:23pm] MikeRay joined the chat room. [7:24pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: hi Jed [7:24pm] JedBrensinger: how's it going [7:26pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: good... [7:26pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: you? [7:26pm] JedBrensinger: pretty good [7:26pm] AugustineCastle2 joined the chat room. [7:27pm] AugustineCastle2: Okay, I'm here. --David [7:27pm] JedBrensinger: Hi David [7:28pm] AugustineCastle2: I have some PowerPoint files to send you all. How do I do that? [7:28pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: Hi David [7:28pm] AugustineCastle4 joined the chat room. [7:28pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: maybe send them to our emails? [7:28pm] AugustineCastle4 is now known as highermonkey. [7:28pm] mike_ray: send them to the newsgroup? [7:29pm] MikeRay was promoted to operator by mike_ray. [7:29pm] AugustineCastle2: Is that right, Mike? Send them to the e-mail addresses? [7:29pm] mike_ray left the chat room. ("Leaving") [7:29pm] AugustineCastle2 was promoted to operator by JedBrensinger. [7:29pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo was promoted to operator by JedBrensinger. [7:29pm] highermonkey was promoted to operator by JedBrensinger. [7:29pm] highermonkey: howdy, everyone! [7:30pm] MikeRay: walden-two-talk@googlegroups.com [7:30pm] MikeRay: although you have to be a member [7:30pm] AugustineCastle8 joined the chat room. [7:30pm] MikeRay: if you prefer you can email me and I'll forward them [7:30pm] AugustineCastle8 is now known as JessicaB. [7:30pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: that makes sense [7:30pm] AugustineCastle2: Okay, Mike. The files will be headed your way soon. [7:31pm] JessicaB was promoted to operator by JedBrensinger. [7:31pm] MikeRay: you can change your nickname by typing /nick SomeName [7:32pm] MikeRay: okidokey I'll be checking my account [7:32pm] JedBrensinger: David: you can just change it at the bottom right [7:32pm] SeanAbrahams: Cool [7:35pm] MikeRay: the walden two wikipedia page is now the number 1 listing for a search of walden two [7:36pm] MikeRay: I got one [7:36pm] MikeRay: to speed things up I'll forward them individually and to the gruop list [7:37pm] MikeRay: sorry Jed I don't have your email addy in this (other) account [7:37pm] JedBrensinger: drummerpoodle@yahoo.com [7:37pm] MikeRay: how could I forget? [7:38pm] JedBrensinger: i don't know [7:38pm] AugustineCastle2: How do I change the nickname? Nothing happens on that button at bottom right. [7:38pm] JedBrensinger: the white box below Change nick to [7:38pm] JedBrensinger: just type a name there and hit enter [7:40pm] AugustineCastle2 is now known as DavidRamsey. [7:40pm] DavidRamsey: Wow! How could I possibly be so ignorant? [7:40pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: easily mistaken [7:41pm] JedBrensinger: you're not the first [7:41pm] highermonkey: Think everyone goes though something like it the first time [7:42pm] MikeRay: number two is on the way [7:42pm] JedBrensinger: David: you can also change the font color, possibly to red, so it's easier to distinguish from the rest of our text [7:44pm] MikeRay: file 2 is out [7:44pm] DavidRamsey: Red it is, I hope. What do I look like on your end? [7:44pm] MikeRay: kinda pinkish red with an underline [7:45pm] JedBrensinger: you're red [7:45pm] MikeRay: how many files are there? [7:47pm] MikeRay: It is section C, Walden Two as a serious blueprint that seemed so striking to me [7:47pm] DavidRamsey: Six (6). If you can't deal with them all right now, keep them but hold off. I would have sent them earlier except that I've been burning the candle at both ends. Semester grades were due this morning, and that is a deadline even a tenured prof had better meet. [7:48pm] DavidRamsey: I thought I should send these files because they may answer some questions pre-emptively. [7:49pm] MikeRay: file 3 got snarfed by gmail I think, but it lists a URL for download on your side, so maybe it was stopped there? [7:50pm] MikeRay: "over 4mb" it says [7:50pm] MikeRay: I'll forward the URL [7:50pm] MikeRay: file 3 is on its way [7:51pm] MikeRay: or rather the URL for file 3 is on its way [7:51pm] DavidRamsey: Yes, forward the URL. It's on the server at Southeastern Louisiana University. I thought the file was below 4MB, but if our server snagged it you can still evoke it from the URL and save your own space. [7:51pm] MikeRay: http://www5.selu.edu/mail_parts/94c9ec3462f88516b883f4cd59fc9a7cd8a610f5.ppt [7:53pm] MikeRay: file 4 is out [7:53pm] DavidRamsey: Out where? [7:53pm] MikeRay: out from me, as in sent [7:54pm] MikeRay: David: is it ok if we have these on our website since they are copyrighted? [7:54pm] DavidRamsey: Looks like the Hornets are "out" too--10 points behind the Spurs with just a few minutes to go. [7:55pm] MikeRay: file 5 is out [7:56pm] DavidRamsey: Yes, I am the copyright holder. You only need to buy the dissertation from UMI if you want the whole bit. [7:57pm] MikeRay: cool. so it's ok to post the powerpoints on our webpage? [7:57pm] MikeRay: we have files from the other talks there [7:58pm] DavidRamsey: Yes, post them. If anybody questions the practice, I am the copyright holder and have good lawyers. This IS America. [7:59pm] MikeRay: excellent! [7:59pm] MikeRay: The only one I am worried about at this point is you questioning the practice. I've heard you have good lawyers and this IS America... [8:00pm] DavidRamsey: All six (6) files are "out" (i.e., sent) from me. [8:00pm] MikeRay: the are out/sent by me too [8:00pm] MikeRay: let me know if you are missing any [8:00pm] SeanAbrahams: I have them [8:00pm] SeanAbrahams: Thanks [8:00pm] MikeRay: np [8:00pm] JedBrensinger: so should we get this discussion underway [8:01pm] DavidRamsey: Shoot. [8:01pm] MikeRay: can you summarize the main 1 or two points? I think I am the only one with a familiarity with it [8:02pm] MikeRay left the chat room. [8:03pm] MikeRay joined the chat room. [8:04pm] AugustineCastle3 joined the chat room. [8:04pm] AugustineCastle3 is now known as JessicaB1. [8:05pm] MikeRay: Howdy JessicaB1! [8:06pm] DavidRamsey: "The central concept . . . is that B.F. Skinner's WALDEN TWO is an invitation to the readerto decide between scientific (behavioristic) and humanistic (artistic, creative) value systems for modern society." That's quoted from the abstract (summary). [8:06pm] MikeRay: okidokey [8:08pm] MikeRay was promoted to operator by you. [8:08pm] JessicaB1 was promoted to operator by you. [8:08pm] MikeRay: Skinner considered himself a humanist if memory serves [8:08pm] DavidRamsey: There's a secondary point that "much as Skinner emphasizes the fole of conditioning in determining one's behavior, WALDEN TWO shows the influence of Skinner's American cultural background, including its Calvinism and millenarian utopianism." That point has been known to drive the Skinnerians up the wall. You are what you eat, but the true believers don't want the "revealed" idea necessarily applied to Skinner himself. [8:09pm] MikeRay: by humanistic you mean "freewill" or able to be credited? [8:09pm] MikeRay: yes, the millenarianism - doesn't that mean 'end of the world' (and then Jesus comes or something)? [8:11pm] SeanAbrahams: millenarianism - denoting a religious or political group seeking solutions to present crises through rapid and radical transformation of politics and society. [8:11pm] DavidRamsey: Yes, what C.P. Snow called the "two cultures" (basically science and art) were both within Skinner. His baccalaureate degree was in English (Hamilton College), and he set about to become a writer. After a few months of manuscript rejections in the bohemian surroundings of Greenwich Village and a jaunt to Europe, he enrolled in graduate school at Harvard to study psychology. [8:13pm] MikeRay: Sean: but that is a less objectionable definition and David said it was a point of contention [8:13pm] MikeRay: unless this is a reference to the apolitical nature of psychologists? [8:14pm] DavidRamsey: The millenarian part has to do with utopianism. But Skinner was no premillennialist, certainly not a dispensationalist. But there's at least a close connection between his viewpoint and that of post-millennialism, in that WALDEN TWO and BEYOND FREEDOM AND DIGNITY put forth a utopian concept to create ideal conditions on earth. [8:14pm] MikeRay: and you found that skinnerian true believers didn't like to be reminded of this? [8:17pm] JessicaB left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [8:18pm] MikeRay: Skinner also claimed to be an athiest yet you argue that there is a strong calvinism in it [8:19pm] DavidRamsey: No, what some of them don't like is to be told that there are some things in Skinner's background which conditioned him to perceive the world the way he did. My dissertation dug into his upbringing in Susquehanna, Pennsylvania. His first exposure to the study of psychology was an undergraduate course at Hamilton College taught by William Squires, who was also editor of THE EDWARDIAN, a periodical devoted to scholarship on Jonat [8:19pm] highermonkey: Calvinism is easy to equate with determinism [8:21pm] MikeRay: calvinism, as far as I know, never offered a mechanism for analyzing salvation in such detail [8:22pm] DavidRamsey: If God willed him to be an atheist, he was an atheist. Anything can be explained as the result of either predestination or the lack of predistination. The arguments--which gotten tenure for a lot of philosophers, theologians, logicians, etc.--end in tautologies and circles. [8:22pm] MikeRay: and circular tautologies even [8:23pm] MikeRay: Did Skinner respond to the Calvinist argument? [8:25pm] DavidRamsey: The fact that he was an atheist does not change his upbringing. Consider that Karl Marx also became an atheist. He was the little boy in a Lutheran family (converted from Judaism) who was supposed to become a priest. At the seminary he came under the influence of Hegel and lost his faith but retained Hegel's dialectic. Marx applied the dialectic, not to theology, but to class struggle. He grew up a Lutheran and became an ath [8:27pm] MikeRay: fair enough [8:28pm] DavidRamsey: I think Skinner found the suggestion that his childhood religion had helped to get him where he was--he found that concept vacuous. But it's like questions of whether Moses really wrote the Pentateuch or Mohammed dictated the Q'uran. The true believers don't want to hear such. [8:28pm] MikeRay: I dont think Skinner could fairly argue against his environmental history [8:29pm] MikeRay: as far as skinner true believers here, I think I am the only one [8:29pm] MikeRay: and I seem to be unusual in not minding this analysis [8:30pm] DavidRamsey: Most commentary on Skinner either praises him or condemns him. I attempted to go down the middle and point out positive and negative aspects of his viewpoint and work. So I generated antagonists on both sides. It's forever that way with moderates. [8:31pm] DavidRamsey: Moses and Mohammed never argued against their environmental history. [8:31pm] MikeRay: I think that there were a lot of factors that polarized things back then [8:31pm] MikeRay: the 60s and 70s were polarizing times [8:31pm] MikeRay: Chomsky's attack made things rather unpleasant [8:35pm] DavidRamsey: I have to praise Skinner for his gentile manner. I sent him a copy of my dissertation. During the research he had given me a bibliography compiled by a former graduate student who had already received his degree. Well, I found that that "bibliography" was chockful of errors, really goofy errors, wild errors. I still found most of the stuff, but the references in my dissertation straighten out a number of things. So Skinner s [8:36pm] MikeRay: some of that got cut off [8:36pm] MikeRay: I think you need to hit return after every sentence or two [8:37pm] highermonkey: Have a good evening, gentlemen, I'm retiring for the noctum. [8:37pm] MikeRay: when you use the term true believer you are using it in the eric hoffer sense? [8:37pm] highermonkey left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!") [8:37pm] MikeRay: nighty night Mike [8:42pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: goodnight everyone - thank you for sharing David [8:42pm] DavidRamsey: I asked Skinner about his relationship with Chomsky, and he told me that he had met Chomsky and that their conversation was civile although perhaps not chummy. The way I got into the dissertation was via Chomsky. I wrote four prospecti (four different dissertation proposals) for my committee at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. The first three got turned down. The third one had more to do with Chomsky. But in the process of [8:42pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo left the chat room. [8:42pm] MikeRay: night Elysha [8:42pm] DavidRamsey: Okay. Shorter sentences. [8:43pm] MikeRay: yes! [8:43pm] MikeRay: or more 's [8:43pm] DavidRamsey: I've never done this before and hope to learn how to do it. [8:43pm] MikeRay: not a problem [8:44pm] MikeRay: it's been the first time for many, oddly enough [8:44pm] DavidRamsey: The Hornets have lost. That's a problem. [8:44pm] MikeRay: you were saying about Chomsky? [8:46pm] DavidRamsey: Yes, see that long paragraph above. [8:46pm] MikeRay: "But in the process of..." ? [8:47pm] MikeRay: you can hit up arrow to retrieve and edit past comments I think [8:47pm] DavidRamsey: While reading Chomsky's review of VERBAL BEHAVIOR, I decided to read the book itself. [8:48pm] MikeRay: ah [8:48pm] DavidRamsey: Can I hit the down arrow to edit future comments? [8:48pm] MikeRay: yes, of course [8:48pm] MikeRay: if you have a precognitive irc client [8:49pm] DavidRamsey: Is there a keystroke which will let me undo a few other things in life? [8:49pm] MikeRay: sorry, that $500 you had on the hornets is lost forever [8:49pm] DavidRamsey: My Hornets got stung. Better luck next year. [8:49pm] MikeRay: its rather unusual to get converted to the fold by reading Verbal Behavior I think [8:50pm] MikeRay: It is considered one of his most arcane, difficult to read, and just odd works (with all the lit references) [8:52pm] DavidRamsey: Maybe so, but I was curious as to what Skinner's arguments were for explaining something so infinitely creative as verbal behavior on the basis of conditioning. [8:53pm] MikeRay: And you were convinced? [8:53pm] DavidRamsey: Verbal behavior is the fortress of cognitive psychologists, what Chomsky called Cartesian linguists. [8:54pm] MikeRay: If I am not mistaken Skinner himself coined the term "Verbal Behavior" to distinguish it from the language and other people [8:55pm] DavidRamsey: I'm sure the phrase was already current, but, yes, he made more out of it. He also originated terms like "mand" etc. to explain his arguments. [8:55pm] MikeRay: I also think that Skinner knew he was tossing a grenade into their camp. Like he did with "Are theories of learning necessary?" around the same time [8:56pm] MikeRay: yes, I have helped to get the wikipedia page on VB up to date - mands, tacts, autoclitics oh my [8:56pm] DavidRamsey: No doubt, but that particular grenade got thrown back. [8:56pm] MikeRay: I have not been impressed with Chomsky's arguments having read his review [8:57pm] MikeRay: they might appeal to someone (perhaps most people) who don't read Verbal Behavior as you did, and know little of behaviorism [8:57pm] MikeRay: the grenade of verbal behavior is just now exploding in the realm of Autism [8:57pm] DavidRamsey: The files I sent have some pictures of East Wind and some other places from 1979. Sorry they're not in color, but black-and-white is still the nature of dissertations. [8:57pm] MikeRay: I am a fan of B&W [8:57pm] MikeRay: we have a member of our newsgroup who is recently from EW [8:58pm] MikeRay: Although you note that Skinner's position seemed to be arguing for "a blueprint" the examples you mention - Los Horcones, EW, were loose interpretations at best [8:59pm] DavidRamsey: Yes, saw the news about autism, a mysterious condition even so. I used to work with "handicapped" children. I don't believe autistics belong with the "retarded" but of course must be under supervision. [9:01pm] MikeRay: Yes, I agree about Autism being mysterious. From a Skinnerian perspective his theories of Verbal Behavior are seeming to be confirmed [9:01pm] DavidRamsey: Yeah. WALDEN TWO inspired communes, but they went their own way. The emphasis on technology as a good thing was a noticeable concern where the so-called Walden Two communities differed from others, more prone to regard technology as a problem not a solution. [9:01pm] MikeRay: even though they were developed observing typically developing children and adults [9:02pm] MikeRay: yes, the 60s and 70s saw the rise of the pro-nature, anti-technology luddites who seemed to want to reject everything all at once [9:03pm] MikeRay: what do you think of attempts to create a walden two community now? [9:04pm] DavidRamsey: I'm for whatever works. If Skinnerian theory can address autism, then Skinner will have helped suffering humanity more than any of his critics have. [9:04pm] MikeRay: Skinner's theories have been implemented in business, education, clinical settings, parenting and who knows where. I don't think Chomsky's theory has lead to anything comparable (dare I say "no technologies"?) [9:05pm] MikeRay: What do you think prevents Walden Two from being seen as desirable as "a blueprint" as you put it? [9:05pm] DavidRamsey: C. P. Snow uses the term "Luddites" in THE TWO CULTURES. He uses it to describe exclusivist humanities people. They took big offense, which possibly means that he did twang a sore nerve. [9:07pm] DavidRamsey: Chomsky's theories have been of use in applied linguistics. It matters not whether the theory is true (deep structure, e.g.) but only that it is valid (internally consistent) and works. [9:09pm] DavidRamsey: WALDEN TWO I don't think Skinner intended as "blueprint." But he also did not like for people to pay lip service to it while doing whatever they pleased. He was especially troubled about information that communes spawned by his book contained potheads. [9:09pm] MikeRay: you don't think he meant it as a blueprint? [9:11pm] MikeRay: B IB [9:11pm] MikeRay: contendB thatB SkinnerB intendedB [9:11pm] MikeRay: WaldenB TwoB asB aB seriousB [9:11pm] MikeRay: blueprint,B notB aB caricature.B [9:11pm] DavidRamsey: No, not in the sense of the Constitution of the United States, but as an example of how behavioral principles can be applied societally on a small scale (1000 people). [9:12pm] MikeRay: sorry that's from the slide "I contend that Skinner intended Walden Two as a serious blueprint, not a caricature." [9:12pm] MikeRay: If it is intended as a thematic work then the Los Horcone model would seem to be the inheritors of the Walden Two mantle [9:13pm] DavidRamsey: Chomsky's critics take more umbrage over BEYOND FREEDOM AND DIGNITY. WALDEN TWO is an entertaining story with a moral, and it's all right so long as it's out in the woods somewhere. [9:13pm] MikeRay: you mean Skinner's critics? [9:14pm] MikeRay: yes, Walden Two is a bit non-threatening, despite the rhetoric. BF&D seems to be squarely in the nature of your dissertation's main point - science versus humanism. [9:14pm] DavidRamsey: I'll have to re-examine the caricature/blueprint comment. Thanks for pointing that out. I don't claim inerrancy. [9:15pm] MikeRay: Although Skinner's critics, e.g. Chomsky, asserted that Skinner's position was "scientistic" and not a scientific philosophy but merely a cloak for dictators and oppressors. [9:15pm] MikeRay: I thought the blueprint comment was one of the most powerful parts of your dissertation - so of course I noticed it [9:16pm] DavidRamsey: W2 is about an innocuous group out in the country. BF&D is about a benign controllership in charge of the country--in charge of the world. [9:17pm] DavidRamsey: It's fine with me so long as someone with my value system is doing the conditioning. That's where all utopian schemes turn naive--the failure to anticipate guys like Stalin and Mao. [9:18pm] MikeRay: If I may be the Devil's (Skinner's) advocate I think he'd argue that Stalin and Mao had essentially non-scientific understandings of human nature [9:19pm] MikeRay: they wanted to punish people into "being good" (which means obedient) which I think Skinner argued was an unscientific position [9:21pm] DavidRamsey: Chomsky was uncharitable in his review of BF&D. He described Skinner's utopia as being like Auschwitz-Birkenau. It's clearly not the vision of B.F. Skinner. The Nazis were trying to punish people for factors beyond their ability to change (things like ethinicity). Skinner's system is about rewarding desirable behaviors. [9:22pm] MikeRay: yes, you are referring to his charming "The Case Against B.F.Skinner" [9:23pm] MikeRay: I think that if you can only allude to your intellectual opponents using images of concentration camps you have ceased to be strictly an academic. This is the realm of politics. [9:23pm] DavidRamsey: Yes, it appeared in the NEW YORK REVIEW OF BOOKS. [9:25pm] MikeRay: a damn fine scholarly journal [9:25pm] MikeRay: Is there anything you'd like to mention? [9:26pm] DavidRamsey: Another criticism of Chomsky's statements is that they may be taken as using the Holocaust as something ludicrous. That reaction is especially poignant in that Chomsky, who speaks Yiddish, is ethnically Jewish. [9:27pm] MikeRay: You mean that it cheapens the holocaust? [9:27pm] DavidRamsey: I hope people will read the posted files, and maybe the discussion can continue at a later date. [9:28pm] SeanAbrahams: David, given that we are a group interested Walden Two, what advice do you have for creating one? [9:28pm] MikeRay: yes, I think that it was quite a lot to digest and many of us are in the throws of finals anxiety & depression [9:30pm] DavidRamsey: I don't know that Chomsky's analogy to BF&D "cheapens" the Holocaust, but only that some may take that view. It doesn't win logical arguments. Remember the altercation between Gore Vidal and William F. Buckley over whether Buckley was a Nazi? [9:32pm] MikeRay: I am exhausted and I need to crash. However, I hope that we can attempt this again when more have been able to look at the slides. Thanks for making them. Sean has an interesting question. [9:33pm] MikeRay: SeanAbrahams: a good question [9:34pm] DavidRamsey: If you're interested in starting a Walden Two, you are welcome to read my dissertation or at least the posted files in case the information may be useful. NOTE: Actual communes have found that Walden Two's 4-hour workday cannot make ends meet. Additionally, you need a stable continuing cadre, not hitchhikers who get on the road again. [9:35pm] SeanAbrahams: Yes, many communities seem to suffer from high turn-over [9:35pm] SeanAbrahams: Thanks David [9:37pm] DavidRamsey: In starting a commune, you need to view it as an enterprise, a business. You need a clear sense of mission and people who are committed to it. Those are the arenas in which many communes are out to sea. Consider the defenders of Masada. Now that was a commune with commitment! [9:40pm] SeanAbrahams: Excellent point. I have been thinking that a founding the community on a solid business would be good [9:40pm] SeanAbrahams: Google wouldn't be a bad business to start a community on. [9:41pm] DavidRamsey: Retirees can make good commune people. They are usually stable (if not senile), have already proved themselves, and have external income which may make them more likely to stay if times get tough. [9:41pm] SeanAbrahams: They are almost a community with the exception that people don't actually live on the Google campus [9:42pm] DavidRamsey: Besides, they may will their farms and ranches to the commune! [9:42pm] AugustineCastle7 joined the chat room. [9:42pm] SeanAbrahams: Yes, bequests [9:42pm] AugustineCastle7 left the chat room. (Client Quit) [9:43pm] mike_ray joined the chat room. [9:44pm] DavidRamsey: You all have a good sense of humor. I hope we can get back to this discussion. [9:44pm] mike_ray: Are you free this summer? [9:45pm] JedBrensinger: don't worry David, I don't think he means a road trip [9:45pm] DavidRamsey: Yes, God (or whatever you consider most sacred) willing. [9:45pm] mike_ray: no road trip?! [9:46pm] JedBrensinger: not unless you have a biodiesel powered bus [9:46pm] mike_ray: Thanks David and I hope we can pick up later. Good night all. [9:46pm] mike_ray: Jed: sorry no bus! I guess that's out. [9:46pm] JedBrensinger: Thanks for coming David [9:46pm] DavidRamsey: No road trip. By that time gasoline will be in double-digits per gallon. [9:47pm] mike_ray left the chat room. (Client Quit) [9:47pm] JedBrensinger: the road trip will have to wait [9:48pm] DavidRamsey: Additionally, my wife just finished her own dissertation at the University of Southern Mississippi, I'm trying to fix my late mom's house, and I have a teenage daughter at home. [9:48pm] JedBrensinger: well we're glad for the time that you already spared tonight [9:50pm] SeanAbrahams: Indeed [9:51pm] MikeRay left the chat room. (Remote closed the connection) [9:52pm] JessicaB1 left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [9:52pm] SeanAbrahams: Good night. [9:53pm] JedBrensinger: night Sean [9:53pm] DavidRamsey: It's close to midnight here. We've been chatting for over 2 hours. Hope to get back online with y'all some other time. I appreciate the interest and the opportunity. Vi ses. Hejdå! incompatible encoding [9:53pm] JedBrensinger: Thanks for your time David [9:53pm] JedBrensinger: it's been great having you [9:56pm] DavidRamsey: Red it is, I hope. You think I'm Jesus Christ? What do I look like on your end? [9:58pm] JedBrensinger: you're still red [9:58pm] DavidRamsey left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!") [9:59pm] JedBrensinger left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!")