You changed the topic to "Walden Two Weekly Meeting @ 7:30PM PST".
[6:34pm] You are now known as SeanAbrahams.
[6:40pm] AugustineCastle8 joined the chat room.
[6:40pm] AugustineCastle8: lo
[6:40pm] AugustineCastle8 is now known as MikeRay.
[6:40pm] MikeRay: ops pleez
[6:40pm] SeanAbrahams: Hello
[6:41pm] MikeRay was promoted to operator by you.
[6:41pm] MikeRay: howdy
[6:42pm] SeanAbrahams: Have a good weekend?
[6:42pm] MikeRay left the chat room. (Client Quit)
[6:44pm] mike_ray joined the chat room.
[6:44pm] mike_ray: lagged out
[6:45pm] mike_ray: yeah weekend as good as it gets out here
[6:46pm] mike_ray: you register yet?
[6:48pm] SeanAbrahams: ?
[6:48pm] mike_ray was promoted to operator by you.
[6:48pm] SeanAbrahams: Register for what
[6:50pm] AugustineCastle1 joined the chat room.
[6:50pm] AugustineCastle1 is now known as ChristianMacy.
[6:50pm] ChristianMacy was promoted to operator by you.
[6:51pm] ChristianMacy: oi - what's the haps, dudes?
[6:51pm] mike_ray: ola
[6:51pm] mike_ray: register name w/nickserv
[6:51pm] SeanAbrahams: mike_ray: Really? A nice weekend in Turlock? Nice
[6:51pm] SeanAbrahams: Just cooking dinner and reading about non-profit incorporation
[6:52pm] mike_ray: as good as it gets around here
[6:53pm] SeanAbrahams: So as good as Turlock gets is not even enjoyable?
[6:53pm] mike_ray: it is enjoyable on a scale of places that have little to do
[6:54pm] SeanAbrahams: Will Walden have more to do than Turlock?
[6:54pm] mike_ray: nice weather\
[6:54pm] mike_ray: if walden is no better than turlock than I am not staying
[6:54pm] mike_ray: good mexican food
[6:54pm] SeanAbrahams: ineed
[6:54pm] SeanAbrahams: indeed
[6:54pm] ChristianMacy: btw, nick's already registered 
[6:55pm] mike_ray: I think key issues for people are those mentioned recently: friendship, love/marriage, and - if things go pearshaped - coping with jealousy
[6:56pm] mike_ray: as for what to do while you are waiting for cupid, or after the arrow has struck, there is art, theater, music, literature, physical activity, socializing
[6:56pm] ChristianMacy: so there's two things there, right? need a big size to give people some space
[6:56pm] ChristianMacy: and need a better reason to join than looking for that someone special
[6:56pm] mike_ray: actually I am under the impression that people would join for that someone special
[6:57pm] ChristianMacy: (i see these really as only 1st gen issues)
[6:57pm] mike_ray: I've heard that Twin Oaks loses people if they don't feel there's anyone special there for them
[6:57pm] ChristianMacy: well that's because they're so cloistered, right? the people there are their only choices
[6:57pm] mike_ray: I think that is a real thing to contend with "Come for the Romance, stay for the culture"
[6:58pm] ChristianMacy: hm. i would say that W2 should learn a lesson from the business world: Stick to your core competency.
[6:58pm] mike_ray: I think you may have some point there - it's kinda boring so people/sex/love is a major way to occupy ones time
[6:58pm] mike_ray: Does the project have a core competency?
[6:59pm] ChristianMacy: W2 isn't about matchmaking, it's about creating a self sustaining utopia, right?
[6:59pm] mike_ray: I think most people would include a spouse in their utopia
[6:59pm] ChristianMacy: maybe - but that's not going to be everyone
[7:00pm] ChristianMacy: and what is it that people are looking for in a spouse?
[7:00pm] mike_ray: I leave that for people to work out on their own.
[7:00pm] ChristianMacy: well i think that you can drill it down to basic needs
[7:00pm] ChristianMacy: now the degrees will vary by person
[7:00pm] mike_ray: actually if we had a core competency it might be IT
[7:01pm] ChristianMacy: if we're going to drill it down, shouldn't it be experimentalism?
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[7:02pm] You rejoined the room.
[7:02pm] mike_ray: you mean what we are best at? I have a lot of education in experimental theory but little experience. Who else has experimental experience?
[7:03pm] You are now known as SeanAbrahams.
[7:03pm] ChristianMacy: basically, right. The W2 core competence, if we're going by the book, would be experamentalism
[7:04pm] mike_ray: Is core competence
[7:04pm] ChristianMacy: sure we'd have other things we're good at,
[7:04pm] mike_ray: should or is?
[7:04pm] ChristianMacy: well that depends. The argument there would be that you can only be successful if you stick to what your core competence SHOULD be.
[7:04pm] mike_ray: and even if I agreed, is experimentalism a business? skill? product?
[7:05pm] mike_ray: Even Bell Labs makes their researchers produce bona fide products from time to time
[7:05pm] ChristianMacy: there are lots of exceptions to many rules
[7:06pm] ChristianMacy: but i would say they're few and far between
[7:06pm] mike_ray: my understanding of core competence is that you get 15 years in the flower business before you start your own flower shop
[7:06pm] ChristianMacy: if you look at most successful businesses, they know what they do and they stick to it
[7:06pm] ChristianMacy: ?
[7:06pm] ChristianMacy: no, that's not really it
[7:06pm] mike_ray: then perhaps I don't understand it
[7:07pm] ChristianMacy: this whole thing translates thus:
[7:07pm] ChristianMacy: "do what you're good at, or what you should be good at, and focus on that"
[7:08pm] ChristianMacy: take the flower shop analogy
[7:08pm] ChristianMacy: let's say that you sell roses and perenials (or something like that)
[7:08pm] ChristianMacy: your goal is to be a flower shop
[7:09pm] ChristianMacy: so for some reason you sell a computer one day and think
[7:09pm] ChristianMacy: "hey, that's a great idea, i'm going to start selling computers too"
[7:10pm] ChristianMacy: this is a horrible example, but the idea is that you won't be anywhere near as good a flower shop as if you'd just stuck to flowers
[7:10pm] mike_ray: I think I see your point
[7:10pm] mike_ray: however, wouldn't the reason for the core competency with flowers be the 15 years of experience?
[7:10pm] ChristianMacy: nope
[7:10pm] ChristianMacy: it's just what you're good at
[7:10pm] ChristianMacy: no experience required
[7:10pm] mike_ray: and where does being good at something come from?
[7:11pm] ChristianMacy: interest and dedication
[7:11pm] mike_ray: but interest and dedication do not equal experience?
[7:11pm] ChristianMacy: well, think about your life
[7:11pm] ChristianMacy: are you good at things only because you have experience in them?
[7:11pm] mike_ray: ok
[7:12pm] SeanAbrahams: genetics + experience
[7:12pm] mike_ray: more or less, or else they are like things I have exp. with, or else they are part of a general class ("tinkering" "fixing odd crap") that had its own experiential evolution
[7:12pm] ChristianMacy: right. i mean really, it's basically saying "to thine own self be true"
[7:12pm] mike_ray: but this doesn't answer the real question: what is the core competency, or what should be the cc, of walden two?
[7:13pm] ChristianMacy: well for that, you figure out what W2 should be good at to attain its goal(s)
[7:13pm] mike_ray: I'd say scientific knowledge
[7:13pm] ChristianMacy: well, but what's knowledge without application?
[7:13pm] mike_ray: (to help with the matchmaking) 
[7:14pm] ChristianMacy: so maybe scientific knowledge and the ability to apply it appropriately?
[7:14pm] mike_ray: scientific knowledge is derived from a special kind of systematic application
[7:14pm] ChristianMacy: i think you guys already have a mission statement, right? so i'd say that that would be the first place to start when identifying a core competency (or multiple - it's also possible)
[7:15pm] mike_ray: there is something like that in the constitution iirc
[7:16pm] ChristianMacy: so yeah, the idea would be that we should always try to do the things that are closest to our core competency
[7:17pm] ChristianMacy: and the further something gets from it, the better it might be to let someone else (who's core competency it is) do it
[7:18pm] ChristianMacy: you might also spin it off if you were a company (ie your Ma Bell comparison - they had lots of baby companies)
[7:18pm] mike_ray: not much choice there. Justice made 'em.
[7:19pm] mike_ray: So then the community should ahve a narrow focus and limit itself to that focus
[7:20pm] ChristianMacy: well, the justice department made 'em get rid of them entirely, but most were already separate - they were just still owned by the same people. (pretty sure neways)
[7:20pm] SeanAbrahams: Well, if experimentation is the focus, theoretically we should be good at getting good at things
[7:20pm] ChristianMacy: basically ...
[7:20pm] mike_ray: experimentation is a method for testing and deriving scientific knowledge
[7:20pm] ChristianMacy: and like i said, there can be multiple competencies, they should just be close to one another
[7:21pm] mike_ray: only the scientists are really 'experimental experts' in the novel as I read it
[7:21pm] ChristianMacy: (ie flower shop could sell trees)
[7:22pm] SeanAbrahams: In my talks with Seth Roberts it seems he finds a huge problem being coming up with hyopthesis
[7:23pm] ChristianMacy: well right - that's cause it's usually the part you don't know if is true yet!
[7:23pm] ChristianMacy:                          
[7:23pm] SeanAbrahams: or rather I am inferring it from his article http://repositories.cdlib.org/postprints/117/
[7:23pm] ChristianMacy: always hardest to get the ball rolling, right?
[7:26pm] AugustineCastle9 joined the chat room.
[7:26pm] mike_ray: welcome augustine!
[7:28pm] ChristianMacy left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!")
[7:28pm] SeanAbrahams: Ops
[7:28pm] SeanAbrahams: Just in case you get cut off
[7:29pm] AugustineCastle0 joined the chat room.
[7:29pm] AugustineCastle0 is now known as ChristianMacy.
[7:29pm] mike_ray: welcome augustine!
[7:30pm] mike_ray: I show its about time
[7:30pm] mike_ray: eh?
[7:30pm] AugustineCastle9 is now known as highermonkey.
[7:30pm] mike_ray: welcome Mike!
[7:31pm] ChristianMacy: sounds good - we could probably wait just a bit if you wanna see if anyone else makes it?
[7:31pm] mike_ray: ok
[7:31pm] highermonkey: Howdy everyone!
[7:31pm] mike_ray: howdy!
[7:31pm] SeanAbrahams: I watched the Godfather parts 1 and 2 this past weekend... perfect examples of punishment being ineffective
[7:32pm] mike_ray: did you all grab a copy of my pdf?
[7:32pm] SeanAbrahams: Even though it is fictional
[7:32pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo joined the chat room.
[7:32pm] mike_ray: I think they opt for the effectiveness of physical control by removing the behaver (sleep with the fishes!)
[7:32pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: hi all
[7:32pm] mike_ray: welcome ElyshaRom!
[7:32pm] highermonkey: In the Godfather, punishment extinguished behavior
[7:33pm] SeanAbrahams: I would disagree
[7:33pm] mike_ray: I am not sure killing someone actually qualifies as punishment
[7:33pm] mike_ray: not in the behavior analytic sense
[7:33pm] SeanAbrahams: In the movies, killing someone often resulted in others behaving to kill more people
[7:33pm] highermonkey: it removes a behavior, but wether it is or is not punishment depends on what the afterlife is like
[7:33pm] mike_ray: they were engaging in a kind of counter-control
[7:34pm] mike_ray: we can't measure response frequency in valhalla
[7:34pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: can you define counter-control?
[7:34pm] mike_ray: counter control appears in Skinner's About Behaviorism
[7:34pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: or give an example?
[7:34pm] mike_ray: he describes it primarily in three ways
[7:34pm] mike_ray: escape, avoidance and counter-attack
[7:35pm] mike_ray: he talks about this problem (a by product of punishment) for many years in different works
[7:35pm] mike_ray: for example the technology of teaching talks about students vandalizing schools (counter-attack), skipping school (avoidance), and so on
[7:36pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: interesting, thank you that was a very good description
[7:36pm] mike_ray: good enough?
[7:37pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: yes
[7:37pm] mike_ray: are we ready? Should we start?
[7:37pm] SeanAbrahams: What's on the agenda tonight
[7:37pm] mike_ray: I suggested that I could talk about "the elite problem" - counter control at walden two
[7:37pm] mike_ray: I emailed a pdf to the group with some cryptic notes
[7:38pm] highermonkey: You mean avoiding the formation of an elite group?
[7:38pm] mike_ray: My talk is basically to attempt to clarify those notes
[7:38pm] mike_ray: higher: to define what an 'elite' is, a ruling class, problems of wealth, power or privelege, you name it
[7:39pm] mike_ray: we are planning on creating groups. If we follow the novel as a blueprint then these groups are members, scientists, planners, managers at the least
[7:39pm] SeanAbrahams: Elysha and I can talk a little about our visit to Occidental Arts and Education after you talk
[7:39pm] mike_ray: the question is: how do we know they won't become oppressive?
[7:39pm] highermonkey: do you propose that there is a general solution to this elite problem?
[7:40pm] SeanAbrahams: Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
[7:40pm] mike_ray: Sean: how about the next open period? I have a lot to cover
[7:40pm] highermonkey: limiting power seems like a good start
[7:40pm] mike_ray: Jed isn't here. hmm.
[7:40pm] ChristianMacy: mike - i thought you agreed with the book that power at W2 was a burden
[7:41pm] mike_ray: highermonkey: the general solution is "counter control"
[7:41pm] mike_ray: and I might suggest that we follow the "one question at a time" suggestion from last time?
[7:41pm] mike_ray: you can private message me if you like to let me know if you want to try that method
[7:42pm] SeanAbrahams: Yes, we can formulate our questions as you talk and then wait for your prompt
[7:42pm] mike_ray: Christian: I don't know what "power is a burden" means and I don't think I said that
[7:42pm] mike_ray: Feel free to ask me a question if there is no question already asked
[7:42pm] ChristianMacy: paraphrasing, but essentially planners and managers have more work to do than other members
[7:43pm] ChristianMacy: either way, you can just go through your talk and my questions might be answered 
[7:43pm] mike_ray: Christian: yes, their workload is not the leisurely 4 hr average goal
[7:43pm] highermonkey: There are so many different kinds of elite.  Some have obvious power, like resources.  Others create their power through the very force of their will, just by being influential.  With so many kinds of power, what kind of general solution can address them all?
[7:43pm] mike_ray: so I'll assume you all have my pdf. If not I'll try to cover the material so its not a big deal
[7:44pm] mike_ray: highermonkey: yes, a good point. I'll try to answer this right now.
[7:44pm] mike_ray: the first point is about benevolence
[7:44pm] mike_ray: Skinner, as a good behaviorist, does not assume that people are benevolent out of some inner force
[7:45pm] mike_ray: I interpret this to mean that we will not simply hope that our planners, scientists, managers and members will all be "well behaved" and non-oppressive simply out of the goodness of their souls
[7:45pm] mike_ray: people are good because if they are not they are counter-controlled
[7:45pm] mike_ray: if people are bad, people escape from them, they avoid them, or they (counter) attack them
[7:45pm] mike_ray: democracy is a kind of counter-control
[7:46pm] mike_ray: although it has its benefits and faults
[7:46pm] mike_ray: bad politicians can only be counter-controlled at fixed intervals (elections) unless they are criminal, but even then its hard to impeach people
[7:47pm] mike_ray: it follows then if the planners are to be benevolent then they must have good counter controls
[7:47pm] mike_ray: skinner suggests term limits
[7:47pm] mike_ray: term limits are a common form of counter-control to avoid people accruing too much power simply from experience, being in office, etc
[7:47pm] highermonkey: staggered terms as well
[7:47pm] mike_ray: yes, staggering them breaks up coalitions, factions
[7:48pm] mike_ray: he also suggested that planners are "anonymous" or hidden
[7:48pm] mike_ray: this is to prevent cults of personality and attempts to influence them / special favors
[7:48pm] highermonkey: do you think this might also inhibit accountability?
[7:48pm] mike_ray: Skinner implies something I call "triads" which are three person decision groups
[7:49pm] mike_ray: highermonkey: accountability is a kind of counter-control. To whom are they to be accountable?
[7:49pm] mike_ray: the membership is not charged with the power to revoke or elect planners so "popular accountability" would make no sense
[7:50pm] highermonkey: they're accountable to more people if they are public and identifiable?
[7:50pm] mike_ray: what would these people do, knowing who a planner was? Vote against them?
[7:50pm] mike_ray: members are not charged with popular counter-control through voting, so this accountability would not go anywhere
[7:51pm] highermonkey: Perhaps formulate alternative plans?
[7:51pm] mike_ray: members have no ability to change the community plan directly, and it would be the plan, not the planner, that would make the difference
[7:51pm] mike_ray: another form of counter control is that the planners themselves much live under their own plan
[7:52pm] mike_ray: this is keep planners from devising a way of life that they themselves would not like
[7:52pm] mike_ray: one that is oppressive or punitive
[7:52pm] mike_ray: except for the triad idea (which I inferred) these are all in the novel as it is written
[7:53pm] mike_ray: planners are also not allowed to use aversive control, although at the planner level it would seem to be a matter of not "planning" for it
[7:53pm] mike_ray: it is the manager-level that would implement aversive control if it were to be used
[7:54pm] mike_ray: But what is to ensure that Managers were benevolent? Let's say we have a bunch of nice-gal & guy planners but the Managers want to "get tough" with the slackers.
[7:54pm] mike_ray: what is to stop them?
[7:54pm] mike_ray: Planners select the managers and presumably they'd select for those who didn't have a history of punitive actions
[7:54pm] mike_ray: Planners also act to counter-control Managers by removal
[7:55pm] mike_ray: the Managers are also to be limited to non-aversive methods, but the Planners would have to enforce this, and the Managers would have to have a reminder/warning/removal system to ensure it happens
[7:55pm] mike_ray: The labor credit system is a kind of counter-control
[7:55pm] mike_ray: it keeps managers from demanding too much from the members
[7:56pm] mike_ray: the labor credit system also provides for members managing their own credit load
[7:56pm] highermonkey: Can it really be normalized to 4 hours a day?
[7:56pm] mike_ray: managers don't demand that members work, but work must be done to stay (a kind of threat in the end)
[7:56pm] mike_ray: highermonkey: economics is another topic I think, no idea really.
[7:57pm] mike_ray: to the extent that 4 hours a day represents a "reasonable non-oppressive" work load
[7:57pm] mike_ray: it would be a question of how do we ensure that this limit is observed? What happens if it isn't?
[7:57pm] mike_ray: Members have counter controls against the community
[7:57pm] mike_ray: there is a general bill of rights which is not explained at length but is implied in many ways
[7:58pm] mike_ray: like I mentioned members have a right to choose their work
[7:58pm] mike_ray: the labor credit system provides for a system of fair accounting and the provision of value (that some work is more valuable than others is a possible source of problems)
[7:58pm] mike_ray: there is a kind of right to privacy implied in the right to private rooms
[7:59pm] mike_ray: Frazier notes that the community does not ask people to maintain their private rooms
[7:59pm] mike_ray: even if it asks them to abide by a community code of conduct
[7:59pm] mike_ray: although its not quite presented as a right there are no "required assemblies"
[8:00pm] mike_ray: the proviso against large groups is mentioned as a form of efficiency but oppressive groups seems to really like group meetings
[8:00pm] mike_ray: since the community has no plans for groups, there is an implied right not to be required to be in groups
[8:00pm] mike_ray: there is the provision to have members teach each other skills
[8:00pm] mike_ray: this has the effect of keeping members from being locked into a particular skill set level, such as manual labor
[8:01pm] mike_ray: with code compliance members have the right to community wealth
[8:01pm] mike_ray: which is to say, the right to stay
[8:01pm] mike_ray: I am not sure of what Twin Oaks is like, but the reasons given by Paxus seemed rather inconsistent for member removal
[8:01pm] mike_ray: maybe that was just a product of the way it was discussed
[8:02pm] mike_ray: one of the more interesting member counter-controls is the right to complain, or appeal, any rule
[8:02pm] mike_ray: I think that if Walden Two was said to be a democracy it would have to be around this element primarily and other elements secondarily
[8:03pm] mike_ray: the right to appeal a decision or rule is something we don't have in our lives
[8:03pm] mike_ray: although we can appeal in someways - say a parking ticket - the appeal in walden two seems to be more akin to a constitutional appeal
[8:03pm] mike_ray: the question is whether or not the way a member is treated is consistent with the way the community has agreed to govern itself
[8:04pm] mike_ray: or else whether or not the manager has interpreted the rule correctly (perhaps in their own benefit?)
[8:04pm] mike_ray: so the right to appeal has some very interesting potential ramifications in terms of member rights / counter-controls
[8:05pm] mike_ray: in the novel members are surveyed for their opinions
[8:05pm] mike_ray: these opinion samples as listed as the means for planners/managers to make decisions
[8:05pm] mike_ray: to determine if members are happy or not, and if things are to be changed
[8:06pm] mike_ray: depending on how the surveys are handled they might be a powerful form of counter-control against the managers (if they indicate abuse on incompetence)
[8:06pm] mike_ray: or against the community plan (if they indicate unhappiness)
[8:06pm] mike_ray: The practices of self-control is also a kind of counter-control
[8:06pm] mike_ray: members aren't required to use any particular methods to control themselves
[8:07pm] mike_ray: if they come into the community and things work out - then why fix whats not broken?
[8:07pm] mike_ray: if the members need some help due to interpersonal difficulty then self-control practices might be suggested
[8:07pm] mike_ray: At Los Horcones apparently members are semi-required to "work on themselves" in some method of personal reform
[8:07pm] mike_ray: I see that as being rather intrusive and limiting to personal freedom
[8:08pm] mike_ray: the scientists are not well described but they are implicitly limited to developing non-aversive techniques of self and other management
[8:08pm] mike_ray: they would be limited by the normal methods of peer review, publication, replication and there would be something like an IRB to approve research
[8:09pm] mike_ray: although we wouldn't be required to have an IRB unless we were federally funded
[8:09pm] mike_ray: this would also necessitate informed consent
[8:09pm] mike_ray: any questions?
[8:09pm] mike_ray: Sean, you got a question?
[8:10pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: you should make a flow chart 
[8:10pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: if you get a chance
[8:10pm] mike_ray: flow chart?
[8:10pm] mike_ray: of counter-controls?
[8:10pm] mike_ray: I'll assume Sean has no question
[8:10pm] ChristianMacy: yeah, i think this is a lot of info to digest - lots of things that we could map out and discuss
[8:10pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: an illustration of the system with boxes for each group and ways they counter control each way
[8:10pm] SeanAbrahams: I was just thinking that self-experimentation could be a good tool for people to use to provide more accurate responses to the surveys
[8:11pm] mike_ray: Elysha: a good idea. I think I tried to do something like that but it got rather confusing (lots of arrows). I can try again.
[8:12pm] mike_ray: Christian: yes, the elites question is something you brought up and its a good question. Skinner's response was an implicit "its taken care of" but a real demonstration would want explicit not implicit methods to control for bad planners, bad managers, bad scientists and bad members
[8:12pm] SeanAbrahams: In the novel, how much surveillance are scientists permitted?
[8:12pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: if you want to sketch it I could make a nice graphical illustration
[8:13pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: I love stuff like that
[8:13pm] mike_ray: Sean: self-experimentation would be good. I think that it would be limited to those who want to engage in it. Perhaps the scientists would lead this kind of thing?
[8:13pm] highermonkey: I notice many counter controls against the poor managers, with people appealing their decisions to the planners, the planners being able to remove them, etc.  I have heard few counter controls against the planners, aside from being kept secret so they aren't worshipped or bribed.  What other counter controls are employed for planners?
[8:13pm] mike_ray: can we try the one question at a time thing please?
[8:14pm] SeanAbrahams: You need to prompt us in order
[8:14pm] mike_ray: Sean: there is a scene in which someone counts something happening in common space. Presumably actions in the common areas would be "open to surveillance" if you mean research and date gathering
[8:14pm] mike_ray: the members would presumably have informed consent which would indicate what they were consenting to
[8:14pm] mike_ray: and the IRB or IRB-like body would limit research to what is useful, not-harmful, etc
[8:15pm] mike_ray: Elysha: sure, I can try to sketch it. That might be a neat visual.
[8:15pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: cool
[8:16pm] mike_ray: Highermonkey: the planners "act" on the community through the managers, so any limits on managers are a limit on the planners. The members have their own rights which again limit what the manager/planners can do.
[8:16pm] mike_ray: I agree that there needs to be more limits on the planners, which is one reason I suggested the implicit triad idea
[8:16pm] mike_ray: in a triad the planner would need other planners to "sign off" on decisions
[8:17pm] mike_ray: no planner could cow-boy along without someone else signing off saying "that's a good idea"
[8:17pm] mike_ray: this would then require 2 or more "bad" planners to get bad stuff out there
[8:18pm] mike_ray: the planners have term limits, staggered terms, a requirement to live under their own plan, the requirement to avoid aversive methods and the limits implied in the labor credit, member rights, etc
[8:18pm] SeanAbrahams: Aren't planners also counter-controled by the scientists... or perhaps the results of the studies they carry out?
[8:19pm] mike_ray: ok so the "order" I have is Elysha, Christian, Mike M., Sean
[8:19pm] mike_ray: you want me to prompt in order?
[8:20pm] highermonkey: sounds good
[8:20pm] mike_ray: Sean: I think so. I think that the Planners are not actually scientists but rather more like business managers
[8:20pm] mike_ray: Sean: the scientists are the ones who develop and test the techniques of community management
[8:20pm] mike_ray: I think that it is just the way that Skinner wrote w2 that the first planner was also a scientist (Frazier)
[8:21pm] mike_ray: I think that it would be a good idea to have the scientists be able to remove planners for engaging in "unscientific conduct" which would place them in a good position to counter-control planners
[8:21pm] mike_ray: but this is not a part of the novel as it is written, but it is consistent with the concept of counter-control
[8:21pm] mike_ray: Elysha: another question or did I answer your question?
[8:22pm] mike_ray: ChristianMacy: question?
[8:22pm] mike_ray: Mike M.: question?
[8:22pm] ChristianMacy: nope. just listening and thinking for now
[8:22pm] mike_ray: Sean: question?
[8:23pm] highermonkey left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!")
[8:23pm] mike_ray: Christian: cool
[8:23pm] AugustineCastle3 joined the chat room.
[8:23pm] AugustineCastle3 is now known as highermonkey.
[8:23pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: I pass too
[8:23pm] mike_ray: cool
[8:23pm] SeanAbrahams: Passing
[8:23pm] mike_ray: back to the outline then
[8:23pm] highermonkey: what constiutues unscientific conduct?
[8:24pm] mike_ray: I think that the aversive control issue would be a good way to define that
[8:25pm] mike_ray: failure to use proper incentives, failure to use a proper gradation of motivations from positive to negative reinforcement to punishments, failure to prompt for correct behavior, failure to use mixed contingencies, etc
[8:25pm] mike_ray: 'Good behavior analysis' or best practices might be a good benchmark
[8:25pm] highermonkey: So scientists can nix planners, planners can eject managers, who can can the science guys?
[8:26pm] mike_ray: A good question: I don't recall the novel going into how the scientists are selected or if they have terms, but I think they'd work best if they were like supreme court justices - selected by the planners but basically hard to get rid of by anyone
[8:26pm] mike_ray: this way they would be influenced, but not really controlled so they wouldn't have to rely on the good graces of the planners
[8:26pm] highermonkey: and they formulate the surveys that assess the community plan?
[8:27pm] mike_ray: I think that the surveys would be set up in advance to some extent
[8:27pm] mike_ray: I see the scientists mostly as a means to assess new practices, but I suppose they could also review existing practices as well
[8:27pm] mike_ray: the surveys, if they are as important as I think they might be, would be something that you'd want to have worked out in advance
[8:28pm] mike_ray: how much, who, how often, what is asked, etc
[8:28pm] mike_ray: the issue of member removal is something that would have to be worked out as well
[8:28pm] mike_ray: I think members should have a fairly high degree of assurance that they could not be "kicked out" or banned for arbitrary reasons
[8:29pm] mike_ray: this would make them confident in the future of the community, and of their future in the community
[8:29pm] mike_ray: a fixed protocol for member warnings, attempts to remedy problems, attempts to make allowances or modifications, attempts to offer therapeutic assistance, education, etc
[8:30pm] mike_ray: would keep members from simply breaking up with someone, becoming jealous, trying to get their ex and their partner kicked out, and/or getting kicked out by another faction
[8:31pm] mike_ray: members being kicked out essentially deprives them of the wealth of the community
[8:31pm] mike_ray: members are trading their immediate labor for the deferred community wealth, and if they leave or are forced to leave they give that up. A raw deal I think.
[8:31pm] mike_ray: A common issue is one of "exploitation"
[8:31pm] mike_ray: the goal of good counter-controls is to avoid exploitation
[8:32pm] mike_ray: either the community exploiting the members, or the members exploiting each other and so on
[8:32pm] mike_ray: this would require that it be defined carefully (operationalized)
[8:32pm] mike_ray: in much socialist theory exploitation is the loss of the difference in the worth of the profits of your labor (if memory serves)
[8:33pm] mike_ray: or it can be more broadly defined to be the loss of wealth by one person or group to the benefit of another person or group in some unfair, arbitrary involuntary way
[8:33pm] mike_ray: and not just wealth but perhaps other benefits as well
[8:34pm] mike_ray: It seems likely that the community would want to have some differential labor credit system
[8:34pm] mike_ray: but how big a differential would be reasonable?
[8:34pm] mike_ray: what would ensure that some members don't always get the incentives while others don't?
[8:34pm] mike_ray: Some kind of guarantee against arbitrary enlargement of some people or groups would have to be in place.
[8:35pm] ChristianMacy left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!")
[8:35pm] mike_ray: Perhaps something like "no incentive can be used that can't be obtained by x-number/percent of the members
[8:35pm] mike_ray: for example physical work incentives might be impossible for seniors/older members
[8:36pm] AugustineCastle8 joined the chat room.
[8:36pm] AugustineCastle8 is now known as ChristianMacy.
[8:36pm] mike_ray: welcome back Christian
[8:36pm] ChristianMacy: arg
[8:36pm] ChristianMacy:                          
[8:36pm] mike_ray: so it might be that a small percentage difference would be allowed
[8:36pm] mike_ray: this issue seems to have been one that was not resolved at Twin Oaks except to have a "flat" one hour labor credit
[8:37pm] mike_ray: essentially many of the conditions are anti-exploitation counter-controls (limits on amount of work, on planner/manager capacity, rights to stay or leave, etc)
[8:37pm] mike_ray: then there is the question of horizontal exploitation
[8:38pm] ChristianMacy: (chuckle)
[8:38pm] mike_ray: in Twin Oaks a charismatic member arose who convinced his partner to work his labor credits for him
[8:38pm] mike_ray: so that he could play his guitar all day long
[8:38pm] mike_ray: I think that I would classify this as a kind of exploitation even if it doesn't arise from the Planners or Managers (or Scientists)
[8:38pm] mike_ray: members need to be protected from other members
[8:39pm] mike_ray: the exact elements of removal of Planners needs to be worked out
[8:39pm] highermonkey: How?
[8:39pm] mike_ray: how what?
[8:39pm] highermonkey: How could you prevent something like that?
[8:40pm] mike_ray: Well I suspect the key method was the transference of labor credits
[8:40pm] mike_ray: members could "give" credits to other members
[8:40pm] mike_ray: this would have to have limits perhaps?
[8:40pm] mike_ray: At a place where I worked employees were allowed to donate vacation time to other employees
[8:41pm] mike_ray: (for sickness reasons)
[8:41pm] mike_ray: but this kind of thing needs to be contemplated. This is the end of my notes in the "misc questions" categoty
[8:41pm] mike_ray: I don't have answers for all of these things
[8:41pm] mike_ray: but these are problems that need to be solved before they happen
[8:42pm] mike_ray: can Planners be sanctioned? Retrained?
[8:42pm] mike_ray: What about a Manager who gives a preferred job to a Planner? Is this corruption?
[8:42pm] mike_ray: is the Manager evaluates the work, what if they give a Planner (or anyone) a "soft" evaluation that exaggerates their work?
[8:43pm] mike_ray: And what about general resource disparity?
[8:43pm] mike_ray: Some people might have nicer locations
[8:43pm] mike_ray: how are these 'benefits' allocated? Random lottery? Weighted lottery?
[8:43pm] mike_ray: I think that Planners and Managers might even have a negative lottery - where they would be omitted from special benefits
[8:43pm] mike_ray: questions?
[8:44pm] mike_ray: Elysha?
[8:44pm] mike_ray: Christian?
[8:44pm] mike_ray: Mike?
[8:44pm] mike_ray: Sean?
[8:45pm] SeanAbrahams: nope
[8:45pm] highermonkey: not me
[8:45pm] ChristianMacy: i'm mostly wondering about how much faith we're putting in our members, and how many controls we should have in
[8:45pm] ChristianMacy: but i guess plan for the worst, expect the best
[8:45pm] mike_ray: Yes. I started this with the idea of benevolence as a function of counter-controls
[8:46pm] mike_ray: I think that bad members are a hazard to this idea as much as planners, scientists or managers
[8:46pm] mike_ray: there is a trust element in every position
[8:46pm] mike_ray: and limits to our ability to anticipate every possible problem
[8:46pm] ChristianMacy: but then i think the question you might hear if you were living on W2
[8:46pm] ChristianMacy: is why would you want to be a bad member? 
[8:46pm] mike_ray: people bring bad repertoires with them
[8:47pm] mike_ray: Skinner's novel has Frazier as a dysfunctional, but talented, member who works to keep himself "within limits"
[8:47pm] mike_ray: the first generation might have the most problems. But problems would exist in all generations. I doubt any generation will be perfect.
[8:48pm] mike_ray: Walden Two will produce thieves and liars and cheats and it will have its corruption and scandals.
[8:48pm] mike_ray: The shakers had problems too.
[8:48pm] ChristianMacy: but why would it? i mean, that's what w2 is about stopping, right?
[8:48pm] ChristianMacy: the drive for those things.
[8:48pm] mike_ray: the trick is to anticipate them and try to prevent them.
[8:48pm] SeanAbrahams: If people are motivated to 'game the system' then perhaps we can engineer proper reinforcement for identifying and patching such 'bugs'
[8:48pm] mike_ray: there are no perfect systems.
[8:49pm] ChristianMacy: depends on your definition of perfect
[8:49pm] mike_ray: Sean: yes, Paxus mentioned a pair who gamed their labor credit system.
[8:49pm] mike_ray: who knows, people might game the system out of boredom?
[8:49pm] SeanAbrahams: Perhaps people can earn labor credits simply by figuring out holes in the system
[8:49pm] mike_ray: I like to engage in thought-experiments where I think of ways to beat systems
[8:49pm] mike_ray: I usually don't actually try them of course 
[8:49pm] ChristianMacy: ah, but see
[8:49pm] ChristianMacy: there's the rub
[8:50pm] ChristianMacy: there has to be a system to game
[8:50pm] mike_ray: a "labor" pen-tester?
[8:50pm] ChristianMacy: the more rules, the more rules to break
[8:50pm] mike_ray: I think that a minimum of rules is a good thing
[8:51pm] ChristianMacy: but then, with good psychologists on board, wouldn't we also avoid inducting most of those kinds of people?
[8:51pm] mike_ray: I think that requiring the community governemtn to justify action rather than assuming the right to meddle in peoples affairs is a good thing
[8:51pm] mike_ray: Thoreau said that government is best which governs least and I like to think of Walden as a minimalist government
[8:51pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: hey Mike, thanks for the talk
[8:51pm] ChristianMacy: i like to think that the problem is that in our current society, the underdog (thief, cheat, etc) can be valued and valuable. that wouldn't happen in W2
[8:51pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: I am going to head out
[8:51pm] mike_ray: Christian: you have way more faith in psychology that I do
[8:52pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: have a good week everyone
[8:52pm] ChristianMacy: u2 elysha
[8:52pm] highermonkey: I'm headin off too.  Good talk tonite!
[8:52pm] mike_ray: Christian: it wouldn't happen by design in the future
[8:52pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo left the chat room.
[8:52pm] mike_ray: g'night mike
[8:52pm] mike_ray: but it would be the material that people dragged in with them
[8:52pm] ChristianMacy: later mike
[8:52pm] mike_ray: night Christian
[8:53pm] highermonkey left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!")
[8:53pm] ChristianMacy: other mike
[8:53pm] SeanAbrahams: Here's an interesting thought. What will come first? A successful Walden Two, or genetically modified humans built to live equitably and 'lovingly'
[8:53pm] ChristianMacy:                          
[8:53pm] mike_ray: I love that sign-off
[8:53pm] mike_ray: ah ok
[8:53pm] mike_ray: Considering the progress of behavior analysis I think a genetic solution might be quicker
[8:54pm] mike_ray: Skinner flirts with eugenics in Walden Two
[8:54pm] ChristianMacy: wow - very disheartening folks! What up with you guys? 
[8:54pm] SeanAbrahams: Yes, I remember
[8:54pm] SeanAbrahams: Gattaca
[8:54pm] mike_ray: there is no privelege for genetics like that movie
[8:54pm] ChristianMacy: besides, you can't genetically engineer happiness. You can only level the playing field
[8:54pm] mike_ray: in Walden Two ther ewould be no penalty for "bad genes"
[8:55pm] ChristianMacy: and W2 is supposed to level the societal playing field
[8:55pm] mike_ray: Christian: I am inclined to agree.
[8:55pm] mike_ray: So anything else about counter-control?
[8:56pm] SeanAbrahams: It's certainly important
[8:56pm] ChristianMacy: just that i would say that everything is about balance
[8:56pm] SeanAbrahams: I like the idea of having people actively seeking out ways to game the system and patch them
[8:56pm] ChristianMacy: too many counter controls can be just as bad as none
[8:57pm] mike_ray: Well I'll place my faith in an actively engineered government over one that simply rests on man's innate goodness
[8:57pm] mike_ray: moreover an engineered solution can be replicated
[8:57pm] ChristianMacy: but why place your faith in either when you can put in a combination of the two?
[8:57pm] mike_ray: well it's an interesting position in science
[8:57pm] mike_ray: behavior analysis might actually be less effective overall than non-behavioral methods
[8:58pm] mike_ray: however it is consistent and even if it has smaller effects they can be replicated
[8:58pm] mike_ray: and when it fails you know why it fails
[8:58pm] mike_ray: and when it works you know why it works
[8:58pm] mike_ray: the problems are fixed and you get a developing body of science
[8:58pm] mike_ray: with the more variable, less reproducible methods you get really good results some of the time, but crap much of the time, and you really don't know why any of the time
[8:59pm] mike_ray: you expressed a concern about elites
[8:59pm] mike_ray: that is a good concern and one we can't leave to the "goodwill" of our managers and planners
[9:00pm] mike_ray: I support the idea of structure and government, which places me outside of the anarchist camp
[9:00pm] mike_ray: but I want strong limits and clear guidelines for those who have even small amounts of power
[9:00pm] ChristianMacy: it's true, but think of it this way:
[9:00pm] ChristianMacy: if you yell at your cat every time he pees on the bed
[9:00pm] ChristianMacy: he'll pee in the closet
[9:01pm] ChristianMacy: if you find out why he was peeing out of the litter box in the first place
[9:01pm] ChristianMacy: and fix the cause
[9:01pm] ChristianMacy: he'll probably stop peeing outside of the litterbox
[9:01pm] ChristianMacy: i think of people like that
[9:01pm] ChristianMacy: Walden 2 is a chance to fix the cause
[9:02pm] ChristianMacy: because there's too much piss on the bed
[9:02pm] SeanAbrahams: Have you had and solved this very problem?
[9:02pm] SeanAbrahams:  just curious
[9:02pm] mike_ray: perhaps cats should simply not be used as a replacement for good human relations in the first place
[9:02pm] ChristianMacy: working on it right now
[9:02pm] ChristianMacy: that's why it's on my mind 
[9:03pm] mike_ray: I haven't, but I most/all(?) animal trainers take a strong cue from behavior analysis
[9:03pm] ChristianMacy: well they're not really ... have you ever met a well balanced person who replaced humans with cats?
[9:03pm] ChristianMacy: (though well balanced humans are somewhat a rarity in either case)
[9:04pm] mike_ray: If there isn't anything about counter-control I think I should wrap up.
[9:04pm] mike_ray: unless you want to counter-control your cat 
[9:04pm] ChristianMacy: well, i actually think this is all about counter control
[9:04pm] ChristianMacy: the message beyond the analogy is that you stop people from stealing by giving them what they want and need
[9:04pm] mike_ray: you want a benevolent cat
[9:05pm] mike_ray: yes, that is a form of control - to satiate their behavior
[9:05pm] ChristianMacy: well just remember, the cat's not trying to be mean
[9:05pm] ChristianMacy: it's just reacting to stimulus
[9:05pm] mike_ray: we stop them from stealing by escaping from dishonest people, by avoiding them, and by attacking them as well
[9:05pm] ChristianMacy: it's a microcosm of humanity
[9:05pm] ChristianMacy: nope
[9:05pm] ChristianMacy: we give them a reason to stop being dishonest
[9:06pm] ChristianMacy: that was skinner's message - all of walden two was based on that idea
[9:06pm] ChristianMacy: otherwise it wouldn't be utopia, it'd be a prison state
[9:06pm] ChristianMacy: remember the free will discussion?
[9:07pm] mike_ray: perhaps you could schedule a talk on this topic?
[9:07pm] ChristianMacy: it's not telling someone not to drop the matchbook, it's guiding them to what you want through manipulation of stimulus
[9:07pm] ChristianMacy: if you'd like  i'm not in next week, though - outta town at a conference and not sure if i could make it
[9:07pm] mike_ray: I think next week is booked. Email jed and me.
[9:08pm] mike_ray: thanks for your curiosity both of you
[9:08pm] mike_ray: I should be heading off to studying-real-hard land
[9:08pm] mike_ray: its finals time
[9:09pm] ChristianMacy: ok - put me down for the 26th - i'll email you 
[9:09pm] ChristianMacy: good luck with finals! Break a lead! 
[9:09pm] mike_ray: thanks!
[9:09pm] mike_ray left the chat room. ("I'll take the Hamburgteria and Square Deal Pants Store instead!")
[9:09pm] SeanAbrahams: Coo
[9:09pm] SeanAbrahams: It
[9:09pm] SeanAbrahams: It
[9:10pm] ChristianMacy: is this a new animal sound?
[9:10pm] ChristianMacy: "coo - it it!"
[9:10pm] SeanAbrahams: It's positive reinforcement
[9:10pm] SeanAbrahams: No, just typos
[9:11pm] SeanAbrahams: I like your final points
[9:11pm] ChristianMacy: thanks  It really is the biggest thing i think we can take away from the book
[9:12pm] SeanAbrahams: Although I'm not certain why there seems to be a difference between what you're saying and what Mike Ray's understanding is... based on my past conversations with him
[9:12pm] SeanAbrahams: What you're saying seems to be evident
[9:13pm] SeanAbrahams: Do you have a few minutes?
[9:13pm] SeanAbrahams: I wanted to talk to you about Project Management and Organization
[9:13pm] SeanAbrahams: We can schedule a different time if you prefer
[9:13pm] SeanAbrahams: Or, if you're up for it
[9:15pm] ChristianMacy: should be fine 
[9:15pm] ChristianMacy: and we might just be saying the same thing different ways
[9:15pm] ChristianMacy: i was actually thinking the same thing, which is why i was confused about some of the things he was saying
[9:16pm] SeanAbrahams: I've been thinking a little about organization and work processes
[9:17pm] SeanAbrahams: Unfortunately, my past jobs have largely had poor managers, poor organization, and poor work processes
[9:17pm] SeanAbrahams: How's your workplace?
[9:17pm] ChristianMacy: pretty good actually
[9:17pm] ChristianMacy: a lot for me to learn
[9:18pm] ChristianMacy: one of the folks i asked about working with us is from my work, and she just joined the Project Management Office
[9:19pm] SeanAbrahams: Is it a big organization?
[9:20pm] AugustineCastle6 joined the chat room.
[9:20pm] ChristianMacy left the chat room. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[9:20pm] AugustineCastle6: huh
[9:20pm] AugustineCastle6: weird
[9:21pm] AugustineCastle6 is now known as ChristianMacy.
[9:22pm] SeanAbrahams: The net can't keep us down
[9:22pm] SeanAbrahams: Maybe you didn't get my last quesiton
[9:22pm] SeanAbrahams: Is it a big organization?
[9:23pm] ChristianMacy: yep - PetSmart's huge.
[9:23pm] ChristianMacy: but the corporate office where i work is about 1,000
[9:23pm] SeanAbrahams: You do application development?
[9:23pm] ChristianMacy: so small, but projects affect the whole company usually
[9:24pm] ChristianMacy: yeah - mostly my team and i work on implementing the new Warehouse Management System to our distribution centers
[9:24pm] ChristianMacy: but part of what we do involves coordinating small projects
[9:26pm] SeanAbrahams: Gotcha
[9:26pm] SeanAbrahams: My thoughts have been revolving around Walden Two and my own stuff
[9:27pm] ChristianMacy: ok
[9:27pm] SeanAbrahams: I do software development as well
[9:28pm] SeanAbrahams: Project management revolves around revision control systems, ticketing tracking system
[9:29pm] SeanAbrahams: systems
[9:29pm] SeanAbrahams: Delegation
[9:29pm] SeanAbrahams: Motivation
[9:29pm] SeanAbrahams: Aiight, sorry Christian. I can't think right now 
[9:29pm] ChristianMacy: lol - it's ok
[9:29pm] ChristianMacy: you don't have to spit it out all at once
[9:29pm] SeanAbrahams: I'm actually sick and am getting severely distracted
[9:30pm] ChristianMacy: ramble on and see what comes of it
[9:30pm] ChristianMacy: ah - well then that's fine too 
[9:30pm] SeanAbrahams: How's your work cycle at PetSmart?
[9:31pm] ChristianMacy: depends on the project
[9:31pm] ChristianMacy: for example, the one we're doing with putting in the new WMS system is pretty long term
[9:32pm] ChristianMacy: and there are lots of iterations
[9:32pm] ChristianMacy: we seem to be getting better at learning from our mistakes, so that's good
[9:32pm] SeanAbrahams: Are your a Microsoft shop?
[9:32pm] SeanAbrahams: *nix/open source shop?
[9:33pm] ChristianMacy: little bit of everything
[9:33pm] ChristianMacy: we have a lot of applications, so a lot of providers
[9:33pm] ChristianMacy: in my area we use unix and windows
[9:33pm] ChristianMacy: the WMS system runs off of unix
[9:34pm] ChristianMacy: (ibm's aix)
[9:34pm] SeanAbrahams: Gotcha
[9:34pm] SeanAbrahams: My old job had an AIX system
[9:34pm] SeanAbrahams: overkill for our needs
[9:34pm] SeanAbrahams: Perfect example of wasteful spending
[9:34pm] ChristianMacy: it got me using linux again, so that's fun 
[9:35pm] ChristianMacy: lol - yeah, well, that's a problem everywhere, right? Gotta use the budget
[9:35pm] SeanAbrahams: Yeah it
[9:35pm] SeanAbrahams: Yeah it's bizarre
[9:35pm] SeanAbrahams: You know about negawatts?
[9:36pm] ChristianMacy: nope
[9:36pm] SeanAbrahams: They're basically a measure of how much energy you save
[9:37pm] SeanAbrahams: By not using energy
[9:37pm] ChristianMacy: hah! genius 
[9:37pm] ChristianMacy: (depending on the metrics you want to enforce, of course)
[9:38pm] ChristianMacy: work smart, not hard, right?
[9:38pm] SeanAbrahams: They're used in the energy world
[9:38pm] SeanAbrahams: For example, in California
[9:39pm] SeanAbrahams: Electric companies are paid for how much energy they save rather than produce
[9:39pm] SeanAbrahams: (not sure on the details of that)
[9:40pm] ChristianMacy: makes sense for electric companies for sure.
[9:40pm] SeanAbrahams: But if you have a limited resource, you can have more of that resource available to you by reducing your consumption of it or finding/producing more of it
[9:40pm] SeanAbrahams: surprised they haven't ported the concept to business
[9:40pm] SeanAbrahams: negabucks
[9:40pm] ChristianMacy: though i think the better one would be to pay them for increasing the amount of energy produced by the same amount of by product
[9:41pm] SeanAbrahams: anyhow, enough of that tangent
[9:41pm] ChristianMacy: no - you're on to something, though
[9:41pm] ChristianMacy: apply that to Walden Two
[9:41pm] ChristianMacy: that's what the work hours we all about 
[9:42pm] SeanAbrahams: Well, to me it's just about incentives
[9:42pm] SeanAbrahams: Sure, the work hours apply in a certain sense
[9:43pm] ChristianMacy: i would say that they work in an exact sense
[9:43pm] ChristianMacy: remember how he talked about how he got to 4 hours?
[9:43pm] SeanAbrahams: I do not
[9:43pm] ChristianMacy: cut out the innefficiencies and give people the chance to do what they love
[9:44pm] ChristianMacy: if you pay a person for 4 hours of highly effective work, you can pay another for 4 more
[9:44pm] ChristianMacy: you get twice as much potential work from the same 8 hour period because you cut down on excess
[9:45pm] SeanAbrahams: You're talking about 4 hours of highly effective work vs 8 hours of half as effective work
[9:46pm] ChristianMacy: right.
[9:46pm] ChristianMacy: but now you get 8 hours of highly effective work, because you cut out the fat
[9:47pm] SeanAbrahams: Was it PetSmart that was experimenting with flexible work schedules and allowing people to take time off whenever they wanted as long as their work got done?
[9:47pm] SeanAbrahams: Maybe that was BestBuy
[9:47pm] ChristianMacy: hmm .. that would not be us
[9:47pm] ChristianMacy: there are some exceptions
[9:47pm] ChristianMacy: but it's on a manager by manager basis
[9:47pm] ChristianMacy: the interesting thing is that when the whole culture isn't like that
[9:48pm] ChristianMacy: when you working from home is the exception
[9:48pm] ChristianMacy: it galvanizes you into either taking advantage of it, or working your butt off for it
[9:48pm] ChristianMacy: (in most cases)
[9:48pm] ChristianMacy: kind of like what we were talking about before with thieves, etc in walden two
[9:50pm] SeanAbrahams: Not getting that reference
[9:50pm] ChristianMacy: ok - so you live in a society where you're not allowed to have more than two meals a day, right
[9:51pm] ChristianMacy: suddenly you're allowed to stockpile your meals, like having 3 one day and 1 the next
[9:51pm] ChristianMacy: so you start finding a way to game the system
[9:51pm] SeanAbrahams: gotcha
[9:52pm] ChristianMacy: now take that same person
[9:52pm] ChristianMacy: and put them into a society where EVERYONE gets to stockpile
[9:52pm] ChristianMacy: it's not an exception, it's a rule
[9:53pm] ChristianMacy: you'll find that that person is less likely to game the system, because now they know that that ability to stockpile won't go away
[9:53pm] ChristianMacy: and that everyone's in the same boat.
[9:53pm] ChristianMacy: that equilibrium will last until that person starts feeling like they want more
[9:54pm] SeanAbrahams: Anyhow, I certainly didn't succeed in communicating what I intended, and it's late, so I'll try again via email perhaps
[9:54pm] SeanAbrahams: When I'm not sick or distracted
[9:54pm] ChristianMacy: heh heh
[9:54pm] ChristianMacy: np
[9:54pm] ChristianMacy: rest up
[9:54pm] ChristianMacy: it was my turn to tangent, btw
[9:55pm] ChristianMacy: sorry for that 
[9:55pm] SeanAbrahams: Np at all
[9:55pm] SeanAbrahams: Say hello to the misses, enjoy your evening, and keep the cat out of your closet
[9:55pm] ChristianMacy: lol - yeah, bed still, actually
[9:56pm] ChristianMacy: ::sigh::
[9:56pm] ChristianMacy: catch ya later 
[9:56pm] ChristianMacy left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!")