ElyshaRom-Povolo joined the chat room. [6:15pm] You are now known as SeanAbrahams. [6:17pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo left the chat room. (Client Quit) [6:20pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room. [6:22pm] AugustineCastle is now known as JedBrensinger. [6:34pm] SeanAbrahams: Hsllo Jsz [6:34pm] SeanAbrahams: Whoops, Jed [6:34pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo joined the chat room. [6:36pm] JedBrensinger: Hey Sean [6:36pm] SeanAbrahams: I received an email from Christian saying that he might not make it tonight [6:37pm] JedBrensinger: yeah, he posted on the forum about not making it [6:38pm] SeanAbrahams: He hasn't shared everyone's responses to his project email, so I don't know what everyone else is working on [6:38pm] JedBrensinger: yeah i'm not sure either [6:38pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room. [6:38pm] SeanAbrahams: But I'm going to continue reading the Nolo Non-Profit book to get us closer to non-profit status [6:39pm] JedBrensinger: don't exactly remember from so many weeks afo [6:39pm] JedBrensinger: yeah, I'm still looking at building techniques and materials and such [6:39pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: I was working on land consiceraions [6:39pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: *considerations [6:40pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: hey J [6:40pm] JedBrensinger: hi elysha [6:43pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: so, how is your project going? [6:44pm] JedBrensinger: good, still pretty basic, but coming along [6:45pm] JedBrensinger: just reread the book last week, so rediscovered some ideas [6:45pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: cool [6:46pm] JedBrensinger: how's the land info going [6:46pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: well... I posted it a while ago [6:46pm] JedBrensinger: yeah [6:46pm] JedBrensinger: so where would you prefer the community to be [6:47pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: Michigan [6:47pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: basing off experience [6:47pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: I think there are a lot of areas that might work though [6:47pm] JedBrensinger: yeah [6:47pm] JedBrensinger: so you've been there [6:48pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: yeah, I am from Michigan so I know it well [6:49pm] JedBrensinger: oh, just learned something [6:49pm] JedBrensinger: so I'm guessing it would also be more feasable as far as cost goes [6:50pm] SeanAbrahams: I wouldn't be surprised if multiple efforts arise, each located in different areas [6:51pm] JedBrensinger: yeah that'd be nice, assuming we have enough people [6:51pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: Jed: what did you learn? [6:51pm] JedBrensinger: different green ways of building [6:52pm] JedBrensinger: i've come to the conclusion that rammed earth block is the best possibility [6:52pm] JedBrensinger: it seems to be less time consuming that just plain rammed earth [6:53pm] JedBrensinger: and easier, as far as moving materials [6:53pm] JedBrensinger: it also lends itself to using already common building methods [6:53pm] SeanAbrahams: Awesome [6:55pm] JedBrensinger: like i said i just reread W2 and got the impression that living quarters were similar to that of a college dorm [6:55pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: that is the impression I always had too [6:56pm] JedBrensinger: what do you think the reasons are people would be opposed to that style of housing [6:56pm] JedBrensinger: i've been trying to figure that out [6:57pm] SeanAbrahams: Just that it's not what has been fed to us as the ideal [6:57pm] SeanAbrahams: Even I am apprehensive of such living quarters [6:57pm] JedBrensinger: oh yeah [6:57pm] JedBrensinger: Sean: have you ever lived in a dorm [6:58pm] SeanAbrahams: JedBrensinger: I have not [6:58pm] SeanAbrahams: JedBrensinger: But I live with roommates currently [6:58pm] JedBrensinger: oh, just wondering [6:58pm] SeanAbrahams: JedBrensinger: Have you? [6:58pm] JedBrensinger: yeah, I'm currently in a dorm [6:58pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: I have [6:59pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: I really disliked it [6:59pm] JedBrensinger: Elysha: was it the fact that is was a forced community [6:59pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: but my experience was particularly bad [7:00pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: yeah, my room was tiny and shared, and the food situation was really really bad [7:00pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: among other things [7:00pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: how do you like your dorm? [7:01pm] JedBrensinger: it's not bad [7:01pm] JedBrensinger: but i would rather have a room to myself [7:02pm] SeanAbrahams: I think Dorm vs Houses would be an important experiment [7:02pm] SeanAbrahams: I cannot recall precisely but was the Dorm housing in Walden Two more about resource consumption or social design? [7:03pm] JedBrensinger: I think it was more consumption [7:03pm] SeanAbrahams: If resource consumption we may be able to justify individual living units [7:03pm] JedBrensinger: because Frazier points out that members are not forced to socialize [7:04pm] JedBrensinger: so you think consumption wouldn't be that big of a deal [7:05pm] SeanAbrahams: No, I'm not suggesting that [7:05pm] SeanAbrahams: Rather that if our consumption is done wisely, it may provide for individual living units [7:05pm] JedBrensinger: oh, ok [7:06pm] JedBrensinger: i just worry about the necessities that would be required [7:06pm] SeanAbrahams: Problems concerning consumption is one major reason for Walden Two [7:06pm] SeanAbrahams: The necessities for individual living units? [7:06pm] JedBrensinger: i don't think it makes sense for everyone to have an individual bathroom [7:07pm] JedBrensinger: i also think individual housing requires mor infructure [7:07pm] JedBrensinger: more wiring, pluming [7:07pm] SeanAbrahams: It certainly does [7:08pm] JedBrensinger: i think that for individual housing to be worthwhile we have to find better ways of creating that infrastructure [7:10pm] SeanAbrahams: Definitely, it's an incredibly interesting problem [7:12pm] JedBrensinger: that it is [7:19pm] DavidSchrom left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!") [7:24pm] AugustineCastle1 joined the chat room. [7:24pm] AugustineCastle1 is now known as DavidSchrom. [7:24pm] SeanAbrahams: Welcome back David [7:27pm] DavidSchrom: Thank you Sean. I'm glad to be here. [7:28pm] AugustineCastle left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [7:28pm] SeanAbrahams: If you're not in a rush we usually try to wait until 7:35 to start things [7:30pm] DavidSchrom: I'm content to begin when you like. I type relatively slowly, so if you think there are things I might address now, that others will be glad to see once they're here, we might begin that way. [7:31pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room. [7:31pm] AugustineCastle is now known as highermonkey. [7:33pm] highermonkey: Howdy, folx! [7:33pm] JedBrensinger: hi highermonkey [7:34pm] highermonkey: hey Jed [7:34pm] highermonkey: anyone here been to Magic [7:34pm] highermonkey: its quite a Gathering [7:35pm] SeanAbrahams: I have not, but I know Michael and you ahve [7:35pm] SeanAbrahams: have [7:35pm] SeanAbrahams: It's 5 after, so why don't we start [7:35pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room. [7:35pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: hi all [7:35pm] AugustineCastle is now known as JessicaB. [7:36pm] JessicaB: Hi! [7:36pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: hi Jessica [7:36pm] SeanAbrahams: David, I was hoping you might talk a little about what Magic is [7:36pm] highermonkey: howdy Jess [7:36pm] JessicaB: Hello Elysha, Mike, and everyone else! [7:39pm] JedBrensinger: David: you might want to change your font to a color other than black, it makes it a bit easier to differentiate [7:39pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room. [7:39pm] JedBrensinger: and you can get started whenever you're ready [7:39pm] SeanAbrahams: JedBrensinger: How do you do that? [7:39pm] SeanAbrahams: JedBrensinger: Nevermind, I assume the web IRC client has it visible [7:39pm] DavidSchrom: Sure. Magic is several overlapping entitities: a residential service-learning community that occupies three small older homes on adjacent lots in a modest Palo Alto neighborhood across the street from Stanford University, a larger service community of people who contribute to Magic's public service, and a public benefit corporation. [7:39pm] highermonkey: You can select color in the bottom right [7:40pm] SeanAbrahams: DavidSchrom: Is your public benefit corporation a 501(c)(3)? [7:41pm] highermonkey: I can imagine a lot of advantages to running something like that in Palo Alto, do you see any disadvantages to a community like it in a college town? [7:41pm] DavidSchrom: OK. I'm red. I'll add that the underpinning for Magic is a shared commitment to a scientific approach to life in general, and to questions of value (What do I want? How can I get it?) in particular. [7:42pm] DavidSchrom: Yes, Magic is a 501(c)(3). [7:43pm] SeanAbrahams: DavidSchrom: Do you know what "purpose" it's filed under? Charitable, Education, Scientific? [7:43pm] DavidSchrom: Disadvantages are, as in so many things, closely related to advantages. Palo Alto is alive with people from around the world who are exceptionally able. In part as a result, life here is fast-track for most, and costly for all. [7:44pm] DavidSchrom: We're educational. [7:44pm] highermonkey: Does the local demographic mean fast turn over for members? [7:46pm] DavidSchrom: Palo Alto and Stanford have been growing and changing rapidly since we called ourselves Magic and rented a post office box jointly in 1972. A lot of people with "alternative" ideas and values still want to go "back to the land," and even though we're hardly SF or NYC, we're farther from that each day. [7:49pm] DavidSchrom: Turnover: currently we're four adults with tenures in excess of 20 years (though some of us have been in and out over that time), four with tenures of 1-3 years, and five with tenures of less than a year. We're about 1/3 in each of these ranges most of the time. [7:49pm] highermonkey: I recall some of you got into local mediation. Was that part of Magic, or just an individual project? [7:50pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: So, you are 13 people total - and I assume there are more people involved with the other parts of the community? [7:51pm] DavidSchrom: Mediation is a service we offer under the SM "For Common Good." We've done some commercial, some family, and a few neighborhood cases. [7:52pm] DavidSchrom: We're 15 adults and 3 kids most of the time. Two new residents will arrive this week, though one is a person whom we've known for years. [7:53pm] highermonkey: What motivated y'all to start Magic? [7:54pm] DavidSchrom: Another dozen or so folks are close collaborators (i.e. more than a decade of ongoing regular interaction). Another few dozen are regular contributors in one way or another, including quite a few "alumni." And every year we enjoy the benefits of volunteer service from several hundred people who join us for a few hours once or a few times. [7:55pm] DavidSchrom: We had '60's dreams. The 60 [7:55pm] DavidSchrom: 's for me began in 1968. [7:56pm] DavidSchrom: We wanted a simple life, good times, a way to reduce waste, grow personally, be at peace with the rest of humankind and the natural world. [7:56pm] SeanAbrahams: Do you keep the size of Magic low due to resource limitations? Would you want Magic to be larger? [7:57pm] DavidSchrom: We founded the public service organization when a friend who saw us planting trees along the streets of our neighborhood told us that if we were a 501(c)(3), the State Department of Forestry was likely willing to give us a grant to do so. [7:57pm] highermonkey: So, being in an expensive college town, how do you make ends? It didn't look like enough room for much gardening. Do people have day jobs? [7:57pm] JessicaB left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [7:57pm] AugustineCastle is now known as JessicaB. [7:58pm] DavidSchrom: Also, we'd been engaged with various organizations in the human potential, peace and justice, and environmental movements, and we were seeing connections and being shut down in our respective organizations when we proposed a broader strategy that incorporated all of these and entailed partnership among people concentrating on each. [8:00pm] DavidSchrom: Size. We're oversubscribed as a residential community, and we're contemplating substantial renovation and enlargement of one of the houses. We're uncertain what size we want to be. We've less a definite set of goals than a "let's see how we feel with the next step" approach. [8:00pm] highermonkey: I can't say I've heard of the Human potential movement. 60s as well? [8:02pm] JessicaB left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!") [8:02pm] DavidSchrom: $$$ We do a lot with negabucks--the money we can do without because we've pared our wants. Some of us are full-time students with fellowships and teaching or research stipends. Some are employed in the commercial exchange economy outside of Magic. Others deliver Magic programs and are supported by a combination of gift and fee. [8:02pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room. [8:03pm] AugustineCastle is now known as JessicaB. [8:04pm] highermonkey: I've heard Stanford kids throw away too much. Is scavenging very successful? [8:04pm] DavidSchrom: Food. We used to grow vegetables. Now we grow several dozen fruit trees, though squirrels, birds, and rats are a hindrance. We enjoy good working relationships with local markets that set aside produce and other items they consider too damaged to sell, which we "process" into much of our food. [8:04pm] SeanAbrahams: DavidSchrom: What's your advice for us? [8:06pm] DavidSchrom: Scavenging: We find the most amazing things on the roads or at curbside. This is a community where the waste stream is a rich vein. Running shoes are our most frequent and costly clothing purchase. We ride second hand bikes. We sit on second-hand furniture, sleep on second-hand beds, ... [8:07pm] highermonkey: Have you considered a cat, to adress squirrels, birds and rats, or are there allergies among you? [8:08pm] DavidSchrom: Advice: I think we've benefitted by viewing "science" in a broader than customary way, as behavior by which we improve prediction. We've made that outlook a guiding concept. We think of all humans as practicing scientists, with varying degrees of expertise in different aspects of life. We're aiming to hone our practices. I'll answer more specific questions about lessons we've learned if you can give me a bit of guidance ab [8:10pm] DavidSchrom: We've got cats (the neighbors) who seem to think of Magic as heaven, since it's pretty wild by contrast to nearby properties, but we've a veritable feast for the rodents, and I can understand why we've difficulty extirpating them. [8:11pm] highermonkey: What do you do for fun as a group? [8:12pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room. [8:12pm] SeanAbrahams: We are a young organization seeking to do something similar to Magic, but perhaps on a larger scale. Right now we're just figuring out how to get organized. I personally am working on creating a non-profit for our efforts. What do you recommend we do at this stage in our development? [8:12pm] SeanAbrahams: Considering we're starting from a blank slate. No land, no money. [8:13pm] DavidSchrom: We're pretty active. We hike and bike together. We like music and dancing and depending on the current crop of residents, we usually make music together weekly and host dance parties anywhere from weekly to quarterly. [8:18pm] DavidSchrom: Speaking from our experience, I suggest that two (or more) of you make a definite beginning. Take some step towards your vision. You may want to experiment with living together, even if that means just leaving someone's place empty for a weekend and doubling up in the other's space. Or you may want to volunteer together on some project akin to those you imagine conducting through your organization. Magic core personnel exp [8:19pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: Yes, we have experimented with holding Walden Two Camping Weekends where we gather and camp for a weeked and try to simulate living in community [8:20pm] DavidSchrom: What is your assessment of those? [8:20pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: It was clear that organization was the key [8:20pm] highermonkey: Mixed. We haven't done one in awhile [8:21pm] DavidSchrom: What do you mean by organization? How many of you participated? For how long? Where? [8:22pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: 4-5 participated, held 2 or 3, they were about 3 days long. [8:22pm] highermonkey: China Camp in Marin. [8:23pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: we suffered from being disorganized (we got there late, it was too dark), but each experiment was a success in that we learned from it [8:23pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: *held 2-3 days sorry that wasn't clear above [8:24pm] highermonkey: It wasn't a very accurate simulation, I don't think. [8:24pm] DavidSchrom: Yes, if we can avoid catastrophic error and cultivate awareness in the moment, we can learn much from such things. Do you think you want to have another go at it. [8:25pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: We will definitely have many more of them. They were quite enjoyable [8:26pm] highermonkey: I think it was limited as a simulation, and in my opinion the best aspect of it was just having a weekend to bounce ideas off each other, but bouncing ideas is worthwile in itself [8:28pm] DavidSchrom: Perhaps you can use these as opportunities to plan next steps. At some point to come together in a common boat we necessarily abandon our smaller boats, if only temporarily and tentatively. The risks of doing so are a major impediment to the kind of community we at Magic enjoy. I'm in some ways grateful to have done it when I was young enough to be "foolishly" bold. [8:29pm] JessicaB left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [8:29pm] highermonkey: We were trying to model a decision making system that simply did not work at that scale. Cumbersome, but instructive. [8:29pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: so, why is it that you are grateful? Is there anything that you wish you had done differently? [8:32pm] DavidSchrom: I'm immensely grateful to have stumbled into the idea of community. I feel like the proverbial blind pig who found a large oak dropping a bumper crop of acorns. Yes, the ideas of sharing resource were accurate, but more important to me was being "naked" in the eyes of so many others and being able to see self reflected in them. I perceive that I've had only tiny glimpses of wisdom thus far in life, and I attribute most of [8:33pm] DavidSchrom: Here at Magic, in a fit of youthful idealism, we committed to working as full-time volunteers on terms that make the Peace Corps look plush in some ways (they have health insurance, stipends for travel home, post-service separation pay). Now, at 62, I'm personally indigent, uninsured for medical care, .... [8:33pm] DavidSchrom: Occidental Arts and Ecology Center has a structure that combines benefits of private and public benefit organizations. The hold their land as a limited liability corporation or similar entity, and they operate OAEC, which leases the land from them, as a public benefit 501(c)(3) educational corporation. [8:34pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: A guy who works in my office belongs to that community [8:35pm] highermonkey: So do you home school the tykes? [8:36pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: hey - the hour is almost over... [8:36pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: so perhaps that should be the last question and if you have any parting comments? [8:37pm] DavidSchrom: I've enjoyed this bit of interaction. Some of you have visited Magic. I'll extend an invitation to you to return and to others to come. I've enjoyed this interaction, and will enjoy one where I feel less encumbered by my modest typing proficiency. I've three kids to whom I'm a cultural father hoping for a bit of interaction this evening and I want to wrap up shortly if we can do that to everyone's satisfaction. As I menti [8:37pm] DavidSchrom: Yes, we home school after attempting public school for two years and finding it sorely wanting. [8:38pm] DavidSchrom: Thank you to all for your interest in what we are and do here at Magic. Have a look at www.ecomagic.org if you like. We've a lot of info there. [8:39pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: Thanks so much David [8:39pm] highermonkey: Well everyone, goodnight. Thanks again to David for sharing hard earned knowlege with us, and may the force be with us, every one! [8:39pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: this has been very interesting and enlightening [8:40pm] JedBrensinger: Thanks for a very interesting talk David [8:40pm] SeanAbrahams: Thanks David [8:40pm] highermonkey left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!") [8:41pm] AugustineCastle1 joined the chat room. [8:41pm] AugustineCastle1 left the chat room. (Client Quit) [8:43pm] SeanAbrahams: So, unless anyone else has things to bring up we'll see each other next week? [8:44pm] SeanAbrahams: I need to go cook dinner, but will remain in here just for fun [8:44pm] JedBrensinger: Sean: did you log this [8:47pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: he did [8:47pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: by guys [8:47pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: cant believe i just did that [8:47pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo: *bye! [8:47pm] ElyshaRom-Povolo left the chat room. [8:54pm] JedBrensinger: Well David thanks again for talking to us [9:12pm] AugustineCastle left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [9:25pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room. [9:25pm] AugustineCastle is now known as ChristianMacy. [9:25pm] ChristianMacy: did i miss the party? [9:25pm] ChristianMacy: [9:26pm] SeanAbrahams: You did [9:26pm] SeanAbrahams: But you made the after party [9:27pm] SeanAbrahams: Good weekend? [9:27pm] ChristianMacy: word. i hear that's where all the fun be at, yo. [9:27pm] ChristianMacy: It was alright - i managed to injure my elbow, and long story short, i've woken with fevers the last 2 nights [9:27pm] ChristianMacy: that and i'm on-call for my work, so a 3 am call is probably in my future [9:28pm] SeanAbrahams: What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger [9:28pm] ChristianMacy: on the bright side, that is only one tiny little weekend out of a ridiculously large number i will have in my life [9:28pm] ChristianMacy: oh right, well, what you said too. [9:29pm] SeanAbrahams: David was great. I'll be sending the logs to Mike who'll put them online [9:29pm] ChristianMacy: was the meeting as engaging as i expected? I'll definitely be reading the transcript [9:29pm] SeanAbrahams: IRC should have builtin logging [9:29pm] ChristianMacy: fantastic! [9:30pm] ChristianMacy: i thought as much, but i haven't seen the one for Paxus, so i didn't know how that all worked [9:30pm] SeanAbrahams: Otherwise, nothing new to report [9:30pm] SeanAbrahams: Except as a 501(c)(3) we cannot engage in politics [9:30pm] ChristianMacy: oh? [9:30pm] SeanAbrahams: by endorsing a political candidate or a particular measure [9:31pm] ChristianMacy: hmm. i wonder whether that would shoot the joint ballot in the foot. ... i suppose there are still ways around that, though. [9:32pm] SeanAbrahams: Magic, David's community, has a 501(c)(3) under the Educational purpose, which I want to ask him more about over email [9:32pm] SeanAbrahams: We'll just have another organization for political work [9:32pm] ChristianMacy: it's funny - i've been thinking a lot about values and how they vary and how we appreciate them in ourselves and in other people [9:33pm] ChristianMacy: then i look at their web page and that's one of the main topics! [9:33pm] ChristianMacy: serendipity, thy name is internet. [9:34pm] SeanAbrahams: Cool [9:34pm] ChristianMacy: well but we won't be really political anyways, right? it seemed like the furthest w2 ever got into politics was muscling the township based on the w2 ballot [9:35pm] ChristianMacy: i guess "leveraging" is the proper term, but i'm tired [9:36pm] SeanAbrahams: Well where politics plays a role in what we want to do, we'll probably get involved [9:36pm] SeanAbrahams: I'm thinking particularly about zoning [9:36pm] ChristianMacy: true. and i think that the ultimate truth that we have to hold in hand is that while we strive for an ideal world, we are attempting to build one out of a world which is far from it. [9:38pm] ChristianMacy: You know, i was just thinking about this graph we had in business school [9:38pm] ChristianMacy: it was a graph with an x axis labeled "Cost Leadership" [9:38pm] SeanAbrahams: It's amazing to think that probably all of the habitable land on this planet is owned and controlled by someone. There is no "new world" for us to move to [9:38pm] ChristianMacy: and a y axis labeled "Differentiation" [9:38pm] SeanAbrahams: k [9:39pm] ChristianMacy: (btw, you're absolutely right, and it's bull - no one can OWN land ... no one made it!) [9:39pm] ChristianMacy: anyways, the idea was that if you look at the successful retailers [9:40pm] ChristianMacy: they're either great at differentiation, or great at cost leadership [9:40pm] ChristianMacy: but the ones that try to go in the middle end up failing [9:40pm] ChristianMacy: so i guess that draws a parallel for me in W2 [9:40pm] ChristianMacy: except that instead of "Differentiation" it's isolation [9:41pm] ChristianMacy: and instead of "Cost Leadership" it's ... i dunno - ... something i'm missing [9:41pm] ChristianMacy: i think that whatever that other thing is, if we can define it and excel in it, we can not just make W2, but spread it. [9:41pm] SeanAbrahams: well, walmart is a cost leader and provides a large variety, no? [9:42pm] ChristianMacy: differentiation in services [9:42pm] SeanAbrahams: ah [9:42pm] ChristianMacy: so for example, walmart is a cost leader, but they can't provide you anything you can't get somewhere else [9:43pm] ChristianMacy: porsche (shoddy example, but bear with me) is a product you can't get anywhere else, so people don't care about price [9:43pm] ChristianMacy: of course, the real gold would be in being both [9:44pm] SeanAbrahams: You mean being a monopoly [9:44pm] ChristianMacy: well no, because a monopoly has no reason to do either [9:45pm] ChristianMacy: of course this is all the greatest flaw of the capitalist system, right? [9:45pm] ChristianMacy: you would never provide differentiated services at a cost leader price because you want to milk it for all it's worth [9:45pm] SeanAbrahams: Indeed [9:46pm] ChristianMacy: as a monopoly, you'd never foster innovation or affordable prices because you want to milk it for all it's worth [9:46pm] ChristianMacy: a lot of milking going on [9:46pm] ChristianMacy: lots of sore cows [9:46pm] SeanAbrahams: Vivid example [9:46pm] ChristianMacy: heh heh [9:46pm] ChristianMacy: i moderated the exact imagery i was going to set down [9:47pm] SeanAbrahams: So you see Walden has a place that provides high differentiation at a low cost [9:47pm] ChristianMacy: my friend who just left town can be vulgar [9:47pm] ChristianMacy: well, yes, but the model doesn't translate exactly [9:48pm] SeanAbrahams: true [9:48pm] SeanAbrahams: Lucky for us [9:48pm] ChristianMacy: in fact, i think that if anything, "cost leadership" translates more to isolation [9:48pm] SeanAbrahams: What do you mean by isolation? [9:48pm] ChristianMacy: and the thing that we want to find is the counterpart to "differentiation" [9:49pm] ChristianMacy: i mean starting a community that has little to no influence or contact with the outside world [9:49pm] ChristianMacy: think "the village" [9:49pm] ChristianMacy: that kind of system can be extremely successful as long as it's isolation is maintained. [9:49pm] ChristianMacy: it's actually what you may have been alluding to when you mentioned finding a "new world" [9:50pm] SeanAbrahams: I see [9:50pm] SeanAbrahams: I'm not sure how desirable isolation will be for a Walden Two [9:50pm] SeanAbrahams: Or if it's even possible [9:50pm] ChristianMacy: i would venture that it's not at all [9:50pm] ChristianMacy: in either case [9:50pm] ChristianMacy: we want to change the world, yeah? [9:50pm] SeanAbrahams: Sometimes I am reminded of the Amish [9:50pm] ChristianMacy: and we surely can't do that from behind a wall [9:51pm] ChristianMacy: right - ignorance of the world outside doesn't make it go away [9:51pm] ChristianMacy: but they have religion and tradition to bind them outside of their isolation and preserve their community [9:52pm] ChristianMacy: those are slippery things to instill in this day and age, and i don't think any of us would if we could [9:52pm] SeanAbrahams: I look forward to reading Magic's web site more with their focus on science [9:53pm] ChristianMacy: i looked over it a while ago [9:53pm] ChristianMacy: very interesting stuff [9:53pm] ChristianMacy: didn't get to into it, though, so i'll be going back as well [9:53pm] ChristianMacy: but for now, it's sleepy time [9:53pm] SeanAbrahams: Ditto [9:53pm] ChristianMacy: alright man [9:53pm] ChristianMacy: a pleasure as always [9:53pm] SeanAbrahams: Feel better [9:53pm] ChristianMacy: i'll catch ya on the flip side [9:54pm] ChristianMacy: thanks! i always do!! [9:54pm] SeanAbrahams: Cheers [9:54pm] ChristianMacy left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!") [9:56pm] JedBrensinger left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!")