SeanAbrahams: Good day [6:31pm] mike_ray: evening [6:31pm] SeanAbrahams: What's the haps? [6:31pm] SeanAbrahams: How's escuela? [6:32pm] mike_ray: not much [6:32pm] mike_ray: lots of work [6:32pm] mike_ray: how is work? [6:32pm] SeanAbrahams: Good and challenging [6:34pm] mike_ray: cool [6:34pm] SeanAbrahams: I think what I'm learning from it will greatly help with my Walden Two efforts [6:34pm] SeanAbrahams: After last week's meeting I spent some time looking into project management [6:35pm] mike_ray: neat [6:35pm] mike_ray: what did you learn? [6:35pm] SeanAbrahams: Just some broad overview stuff and some books to look into [6:37pm] SeanAbrahams: I'm trying to put my impression into words [6:37pm] SeanAbrahams: Wikipedia is where I started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_management [6:38pm] SeanAbrahams: Distilling what is useful for us right now is, I think, important [6:38pm] SeanAbrahams: But I'm starting simple [6:39pm] SeanAbrahams: So, the purpose of meeting at 6:30 was to get everyone who volunteered to work on a Walden Two project to checkin and spend the hour before the meeting actually working on their projects [6:39pm] SeanAbrahams: mike_ray: I have you listed for "Video Production", but I'm not sure how relevant that is right now [6:40pm] mike_ray: yes [6:40pm] SeanAbrahams: elysharom-povolo: Thanks for your land consideration notes [6:40pm] elysharom-povolo: thanks SEan [6:40pm] elysharom-povolo: did you read it? [6:41pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room. [6:42pm] AugustineCastle: ok, that was weird. i tried joining earlier and i couldn't get in [6:42pm] SeanAbrahams: elysharom-povolo: I have you listed for "5-Page Outreach Booklet" now, perhaps we can refine it [6:42pm] mike_ray: what was the error message? [6:43pm] elysharom-povolo: I never signed up for 5-page booklet [6:44pm] SeanAbrahams: elysharom-povolo: I did read your land considerations, it was very good [6:44pm] SeanAbrahams: rather, it is very good [6:45pm] SeanAbrahams: elysharom-povolo: I must have misinterpreted the assignments then, you state "Next comes the communications/outreach plan." in your email, so I'll change it to that [6:46pm] SeanAbrahams: I'll test the web IRC client now [6:52pm] You left the chat by being disconnected from the server. [6:52pm] You rejoined the room. [6:52pm] seanabrahams_: Lost internet [6:53pm] seanabrahams_: What did I miss? [6:54pm] mike_ray: me and jed ironed out who will call paxus [6:55pm] ChristianMacy: i battled a vicious horde of bacta slugs bent on world domination and the destruction of all salt mines [6:55pm] ChristianMacy: i also got my chat client to work [6:56pm] seanabrahams_: ChristianMacy: Good to know you're still saving the world [6:56pm] seanabrahams_: I'm going to spend the next 30 minutes on my non-profit project [6:56pm] ChristianMacy: one small act of heroism at a time, my man. Nothing compared to the evil chicken robots, though. [6:57pm] ChristianMacy: cool - i have open project, so if we want, we can start putting down information about tasks and resources [6:57pm] seanabrahams_: What is open project? [6:58pm] ChristianMacy: it's an open source distro of an ms project-like software [6:59pm] ChristianMacy: i have the link on the links page, but i just downloaded and installed [7:02pm] seanabrahams_: http://openproj.org/openproj [7:03pm] SeanAbrahams left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [7:03pm] elysharom-povolo left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [7:04pm] elysharom-povolo joined the chat room. [7:04pm] You are now known as SeanAbrahams. [7:05pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room. [7:06pm] AugustineCastle: hi [7:06pm] JedBrensinger: hi [7:07pm] AugustineCastle is now known as Paxus. [7:07pm] ChristianMacy: hello! [7:07pm] elysharom-povolo: hi [7:08pm] mike_ray: Paxus: you made it! [7:08pm] SeanAbrahams: Welcome Paxus, great to have you [7:08pm] mike_ray: I just talked paxus through the java client, and he should be back in 20m or so [7:09pm] SeanAbrahams: Sounds good [7:09pm] Paxus: i'm here [7:09pm] ChristianMacy: wow - that was FAST! [7:09pm] ChristianMacy: [7:09pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room. [7:10pm] Paxus: so what do you want to know about ? [7:10pm] AugustineCastle is now known as JessicaB. [7:10pm] mike_ray: it might be best to wait a little bit to give more time for people to show up? [7:11pm] Paxus: nah. lets just reward those who show up early - i've got lots of time - behaviorism and all that, right [7:11pm] JedBrensinger: Mike: are we expecting anyone else [7:12pm] ChristianMacy: well if we're just to palaver we might as well get to it, but if you had a certain set of things you wanted to say we should wait. ... that about right, mike? [7:12pm] mike_ray: palavaring is always on the agenda [7:13pm] mike_ray: Jed: no one in particular per se, but this is the benefit of an advertised time - unexpected people can show up [7:13pm] Paxus: i dont know what palavaring is ? [7:13pm] ChristianMacy: heh heh [7:13pm] SeanAbrahams: Neither do I [7:13pm] ChristianMacy: just a word i read somewhere. just talk is all [7:13pm] JedBrensinger: good, i wasn't sure either [7:13pm] SeanAbrahams: Paxus: how's Twin Oaks? [7:14pm] Paxus: complicated - frustrating - amazing - a solution to climate change and more [7:14pm] Paxus: be a bit more specific and i can tell you more [7:14pm] ChristianMacy: how did you get involved in it? [7:15pm] ChristianMacy: were you looking for it? or did you just stumble on it and think it a good idea? [7:15pm] Paxus: i did anti-nuclear organizing in eastern europe after the Berlin wall came down [7:15pm] Paxus: and had a long history of doing "oppositional" political work [7:15pm] Paxus: dont build this road, dont use the GMOs, dont build this reactor, stop this war [7:16pm] Paxus: and i wanted to be involved with something that was propositional [7:16pm] Paxus: something which said "here are solutions, this is how the world can be a better place - we should do it this way" [7:16pm] Paxus: Twin Oaks is very much a place like that [7:16pm] Paxus: sharing technologies [7:16pm] Paxus: no crime [7:16pm] Paxus: spirit of cooperation [7:16pm] Paxus: egalitarianism [7:16pm] Paxus: small ecological footpront [7:16pm] Paxus: more [7:17pm] SeanAbrahams: Paxus: I'm sorry, I just meant in a casual sense, as if I were asking how you were doing [7:17pm] Paxus left the chat room. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [7:17pm] mike_ray: whoops [7:18pm] ChristianMacy: way to go sean [7:18pm] mike_ray: haha [7:18pm] ChristianMacy: [7:18pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room. [7:18pm] AugustineCastle: did you get any of that [7:18pm] AugustineCastle: ? [7:18pm] elysharom-povolo: up until "more" [7:19pm] AugustineCastle is now known as paxus. [7:19pm] ChristianMacy: nope [7:19pm] ChristianMacy: last i saw was sean's comment [7:19pm] ChristianMacy: (after more) [7:19pm] paxus: i dont hink i got seans comment (know i did nt) [7:20pm] paxus: did you get the part about oppositional vs propositional politics ? [7:20pm] mike_ray: what does propositional mean? [7:20pm] paxus: okay, let me tryu again [7:21pm] elysharom-povolo: yes we got that [7:21pm] paxus: great [7:21pm] elysharom-povolo: Paxus: and i wanted to be involved with something that was propositional [7:21pm] paxus: propositional means to advance a proposal or idea of how things can bebetter [7:21pm] paxus: to be a model as Twin Oaks is [7:21pm] mike_ray: ah ok [7:22pm] mike_ray: so then you are ok? [7:22pm] ChristianMacy: is the community actively growing membership or trying to expand to more communities? [7:23pm] ChristianMacy: (oops - sorry, mike) [7:23pm] mike_ray: a good question, not exactly palavar [7:23pm] paxus: i am fine - the community is currently nearing our population cap - which is 96 adult members [7:23pm] paxus: this is determined by the number of adult rooms we have (we have a dozen kid rooms - which ar enot in this count) [7:24pm] paxus: we have members who are doing sevelopment work on starting new communities or working to bring TO values to other communities [7:24pm] paxus: and the income sharing model we use is quite limiting - in that most peole are not willing to do that [7:25pm] mike_ray: what do people object to in the model? [7:25pm] paxus: most people want to have a high level of independent control over money [7:26pm] paxus: twin oaks gives people $76/month and a deep social welfare net [7:26pm] paxus: so the cmty pays for food, housing, clothing, transport, medical, education, dental, vision [7:26pm] paxus: and more [7:26pm] mike_ray: do they want specific things that TO won't buy them? coca cola or something? [7:27pm] paxus: cigarettes, beer, hookers [7:27pm] paxus: no wait - no one is all that excited abotu hookers [7:28pm] paxus: at least as far as i know [7:28pm] ChristianMacy: oh man - no hookers? [7:28pm] mike_ray: is smoking allowed? [7:28pm] ChristianMacy: uh ... i mean ... beer? [7:28pm] paxus: like the book says, it aint utopia yet [7:28pm] paxus: we are an embrace diversity community [7:29pm] paxus: as much as possible we dont tell members wha thtey can and cant do [7:29pm] paxus: so we dont say [7:29pm] paxus: you have to become a vegitarian [7:29pm] paxus: you have to stop drinking [7:29pm] paxus: you have to send you kids to public school [7:29pm] paxus: you have to worship buddha [7:29pm] paxus: or what ever [7:29pm] paxus: if it doe snot run ove rthe rights of another member [7:29pm] paxus: it is pretty much fair game [7:30pm] mike_ray: cool [7:30pm] ChristianMacy: how is modern tech provided to the community? I remember you mentioned computers in the community in your essay? (i believe...) [7:31pm] paxus: we have everything but TV [7:31pm] JessicaB: I saw that when I visited. There were places to smoke and smoke free places. And lots of people with lots of different ideas and opinions. [7:31pm] paxus: we have a T1 internet connection [7:31pm] paxus: there are a bunch of public computers [7:31pm] mike_ray: fractional t1, bursting t1? [7:31pm] paxus: and increasingly people have Ipods and the like [7:32pm] paxus: No we have our own full T1that pumps into the place and then is split across the 9 residential building and business locations [7:32pm] mike_ray: is this recent? [7:33pm] paxus: 3 years old [7:33pm] mike_ray: are you a non-profit corporation? [7:33pm] ChristianMacy: and the community pays for this with its "exports"? [7:33pm] ChristianMacy: ooh - that's a better one [7:33pm] paxus: we have a numberof different corporate identities [7:33pm] paxus: the most important is a 501 D (which is not the classic 501 c 3 non-profit) [7:34pm] paxus: it is the tax states developed by the shakers for shared income [7:34pm] paxus: it is basically a worker owned cooperative [7:34pm] paxus: yes, we pay for everything with the money we make fom 5 cottage industries we run [7:35pm] mike_ray: I heard you used to have a contract with pier 1? [7:35pm] paxus: we netted over half a million in 2007 [7:35pm] paxus: we did, they droppe dus a botu 3 years back [7:35pm] paxus: we reconfigured [7:35pm] paxus: went into austerity for a couple years [7:35pm] paxus: have diversifed and are out of austerity now [7:35pm] mike_ray: a half-million across how many labor hours? [7:35pm] ChristianMacy: my turn to ask what something means [7:35pm] mike_ray: shoot [7:36pm] ChristianMacy: austerity? [7:36pm] paxus: 90 people * 2000 hours per year = 180,000 hours [7:36pm] paxus: but this is deceptive, because we put tens of thousands into income subsitution efforts [7:36pm] paxus: and then we also pay for all the domesti with tose hours, cooking, cleaning, child care [7:37pm] paxus: austerity means we cut budgets back, avoid non-essentials, reduce payments to kids going to college, etc [7:38pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room. [7:38pm] AugustineCastle is now known as highermonkey. [7:38pm] ChristianMacy: that's a good question, actually, how is education handled before college? [7:38pm] paxus: again - we dont tell memebrs what to do [7:38pm] ChristianMacy: (btw, MonkeyMike, i have a link for you ) [7:38pm] paxus: parents and kids choose [7:38pm] paxus: currently most of the pre-teens are home schooled [7:38pm] paxus: and most of the teens are in the local public school or in private schools [7:39pm] paxus: the teens want greater social exposiure [7:39pm] paxus: we have run schools her ein the past - i think we will again in acouple of years [7:39pm] paxus: because of the way the kids are clumped [7:39pm] paxus: i have a 6 year old here named WIllow [7:40pm] mike_ray: is collective child rearing popular with anyone there? [7:40pm] paxus: willow has 3 parents and a dozen primaries (people who do child care every week for a couple of hours or more) [7:41pm] paxus: i did group care today with willow and his best friend Jonah [7:41pm] highermonkey: are dogs raised collectively, or do people tend to pair up with them? [7:41pm] paxus: but we have disassembled the full collective program that is described in Walden II experiment and was what the kibutzim used (sp/) [7:41pm] mike_ray: yes [7:41pm] paxus: people are paired with dogs [7:41pm] ChristianMacy: how does the second generation handle TO? Have you had any of them question whether they want to keep living in TO? [7:42pm] paxus: but the cmty collectively pays for them [7:42pm] paxus: there is a waiting list for dogs [7:42pm] paxus: dogs and cat total numbers are restricted [7:42pm] mike_ray: who restricts them? [7:42pm] paxus: basically all our kids leave when they finish HS or turn 18 [7:42pm] paxus: which ever is later [7:43pm] paxus: they could become memebrs if they wanted [7:43pm] paxus: butthey would have to work quota [7:43pm] paxus: #which they do not have to do (really) as kids [7:43pm] highermonkey: do they return often, after having their fill of adventure? [7:43pm] paxus: as kids their prinicpal obligationis to schooling [7:43pm] paxus: some not very many [7:43pm] ChristianMacy: do they talk about why or why not? [7:44pm] paxus: Devon who lived next door to me for a few years i ased her when she left why she was leaving [7:44pm] JessicaB: Does that affect whether or not their parents stay? [7:44pm] paxus: she said i ahve been living at TwinOaks since i was 3 (she was 18 when we were talk) [7:45pm] paxus: she said TO is one of the best places inthe world - and she was convinced that the world was bigger than this and wanted to see it [7:45pm] paxus: she lives in CHarolottesvilel and comes by for partys [7:45pm] paxus: the rain often stos when the sun comes up [7:45pm] ChristianMacy: have you talked to her since about her impressions of living outside of TO? [7:45pm] paxus: parents often leave when their kids do [7:46pm] paxus: and many tay [7:46pm] paxus: Devon still loves TO, writes songs about it (she is amusician) [7:46pm] paxus: and she wants to develop her carreer as an articst -- which is tricky to do here [7:47pm] paxus: thowe do have some artists here [7:47pm] highermonkey: what types of media? [7:47pm] elysharom-povolo: why would you say it is tricky? [7:47pm] paxus: the artists who live here work in several media - puppets, sculptures, painting [7:48pm] highermonkey: does large scale collaboration happen much? Like a big show something? [7:48pm] paxus: It is tricky to be a performing artist, because use you have to use the cmty vehciles, which there are restrictions on [7:49pm] paxus: you have to get a manager to back you, advancing resources for your carreer [7:49pm] paxus: you cant work for money for yourself while youa re on campus [7:49pm] JessicaB: I imagine art materials could be expensive too. Do people buy their own or does the commumity support materials? [7:49pm] paxus: we have a property code which is quite resticitive [7:50pm] highermonkey: how so? [7:50pm] paxus: We buy some of Purl's materials and we are reproducing his maerials on DVD whichwe are sending out to promote him [7:51pm] paxus: The property code requires people who want to make money to work off campus [7:52pm] paxus: you need to use our vehciles [7:52pm] paxus: there is process to get access to extra-ordinary funding [7:53pm] mike_ray: do you mind if I ask about walden two? [7:53pm] paxus: most people do most of their work in our businesses [7:53pm] paxus: not at all [7:53pm] paxus: you can ask anything [7:53pm] mike_ray: how is walden two seen now at TO? [7:53pm] highermonkey: so if you wanna be an artist and a manager won't back you, what does that mean. Materials and promotions are up to you? Art doesn't count for your quota? What does it mean? [7:54pm] paxus: Walden II is seen as an inspirational text that we have largely moved away from [7:54pm] paxus: we dont use behaviorism - W2 advacated differential labor credits to get unpopular work done [7:54pm] paxus: turns out once you have more than 30 people [7:55pm] paxus: there is no such thing as universally unpopular work [7:55pm] paxus: even tiny variances in labor credits would cause flocking to those jobs [7:55pm] paxus: or fleeing from them (inthe case of "popular jobs") [7:56pm] paxus: we use the planner manager system described in W2 - which is a second rate decision making system [7:56pm] JessicaB: When I was there, most people seemed to dislike kitchen clean-up. Is that still the case? [7:56pm] ChristianMacy: are all jobs handled by the community, or are some outsourced? [7:56pm] paxus: the only assigned work is on kitchen clean shift [7:56pm] paxus: not so much because it is unpopular, but becausethere is a lot of it [7:56pm] paxus: 48 K shifts a week or something [7:56pm] paxus: we do outsource some [7:57pm] paxus: but we do all our own vehicle work [7:57pm] ChristianMacy: what kind of jobs are outsourced? [7:57pm] paxus: our meat cutting will be outsources this year, but we have done it for the last few years [7:57pm] mike_ray: you mention the planner-manager system, is it straight out of the book or modified? [7:57pm] paxus: we may have to outsource plumbing this year [7:57pm] paxus: we have done it ourself for quite a while [7:58pm] paxus: we outsource some appliance repair work to a local ex-member [7:58pm] ChristianMacy: and since you described it as second rate, i would also ask what a first rate decision-making system would be? [7:58pm] paxus: i dont remember hte book that well, but i believe it is prettymuch a direct copy - ghastly system, dont use it [7:58pm] paxus: consensus is first rate in my experience [7:58pm] highermonkey: what are its shortcomings [7:59pm] paxus: hell, i would even take East Winds weighted democracy over the sometimes groupy minorities rule system that we have [7:59pm] paxus: the biggest shortcoming isthat there is no way to predict the flow of a proposal once it is advance [7:59pm] mike_ray: in the book there are six planners, half men/half women, with staggered 10 year terms [8:00pm] paxus: you dont know if 22 people saying "this is great" and 7 saying "over my dead body" is going to mean it dies or passes [8:00pm] paxus: we have three or 4 planners 9i just finished a term) [8:00pm] paxus: we dont care about gender anymore [8:00pm] paxus: we have trouble getting people to take on the job [8:00pm] mike_ray: are the terms 10 years? [8:00pm] paxus: lots of headache [8:00pm] paxus: lots of homework [8:00pm] paxus: 18 months staggard [8:01pm] paxus: basically two budgeting cycles [8:01pm] paxus: lots of planenrs quot [8:01pm] paxus: *quit [8:01pm] mike_ray: some see the planners as an 'elite' but it sounds like no one wants this elite position? [8:01pm] paxus: It is great until there is a crisis - then often the planners are attacked [8:01pm] JessicaB: Have you been a planner? [8:01pm] paxus: especially when they end involved in decision about throing people out [8:02pm] paxus: ther eis never an easy expulsion [8:02pm] JessicaB: Oops! see the answer [8:02pm] paxus: i just finished a stand in planner term of 6 months [8:02pm] highermonkey: what usually causes expulsions? [8:02pm] paxus: i contiinue to go to the planner mtgs and take notes and facilitate them [8:02pm] paxus: because i get them out fast, so they keep me around [8:02pm] paxus: there is no "usually" with expulsion [8:02pm] ChristianMacy: are there any planners that don't quit? that enjoy being in the position? [8:03pm] paxus: in the time i ahve been here threw one person out for child porn [8:03pm] paxus: another person was pushe dout for cutting the cord to a microwave [8:03pm] paxus: another person was counciling visitors on how to cheat the labor systema nd then had a manic breakdown [8:04pm] paxus: one person was writing distrubring anonomous love letter to someone who lived here and leaving them around the community [8:04pm] mike_ray: the labor system can be cheated? [8:04pm] paxus: lots of planners dont quit [8:04pm] paxus: most f them actually [8:04pm] paxus: the labor system can be cheated in lots of ways [8:04pm] paxus: for starters it is a trust based system [8:05pm] paxus: so you can simply lie on your labor sheet [8:05pm] paxus: but there are much more clever ways to do i as well [8:05pm] ChristianMacy: but if it's such a chore and the terms are only 18 months, why so many that stay? [8:05pm] paxus: this woman who got thrown out figured out how to give credits to her friend and then have them give them to her and this enabled her to do "over quota" work which is less restricted [8:05pm] paxus: it was a loophole no one had seen or expected [8:06pm] paxus: perfectly legal [8:06pm] paxus: not in the spirit of the game [8:06pm] paxus: the plannership is one of the few real executive positions here [8:06pm] paxus: people stay because they want to serve [8:06pm] mike_ray: how much would it cost to start a twin oaks today in california from scratch? [8:06pm] paxus: or because they want ot practive decision making [8:06pm] mike_ray: how many people would you need? how much land? [8:06pm] paxus: or because they are power hungry [8:07pm] paxus: or because they feel an obligation to do it (my lover Hawina has been here for 10 years and will be aplanner, not because she wants to be, but because she has the capacity) [8:07pm] paxus: you cant build Twin Oaks in California [8:07pm] paxus: beside the crazy land prices, the zoning would kill you [8:08pm] mike_ray: $5,000/acre? [8:08pm] paxus: this is why the FEC communities are clustered in places like VA (which had easy zoning) or Missouri which still does [8:08pm] paxus: there are communities starting all the time [8:08pm] JessicaB: What kind of zoning do you need? [8:08pm] paxus: but most are not income sharing [8:09pm] paxus: and most of them these days are co-housing, which is a completely different model [8:09pm] paxus: important -0 but not what we are doing [8:09pm] paxus: the problem with a zoning is that you dont ahve a master plan that you can stick with, because the nature of your communty changes unpredictably with time [8:10pm] mike_ray: you mean highermonkey couldn't live in a treehouse? [8:10pm] paxus: the same ordinances which stop developers from going wild, keep communities from growing organically [8:10pm] paxus: we have a tree house [8:10pm] paxus: a very snazzy tree house actually [8:10pm] paxus: and at East Wind there are several tree based buildings [8:11pm] mike_ray: so then do you see yourself ever growing to 1,000 members? [8:11pm] paxus: no [8:12pm] paxus: we might make 150 in the next 20 year [8:12pm] paxus: but never 1000 [8:12pm] paxus: we would spin off other communites (as we did with Acorn) instead of growing ourself that large [8:12pm] mike_ray: as a propositional model don't you need the ability to expand? [8:12pm] paxus: you dont need i single lare entity of a particular type (like this) [8:12pm] paxus: i woud be ahppy with lots of federated communities [8:13pm] paxus: sizes 3 to 300 [8:13pm] paxus: i personally like big [8:13pm] paxus: i would like us to be bigger [8:13pm] paxus: but our de=cision model wont work for 300 people [8:13pm] JessicaB: Do you use other communities services and products? [8:14pm] paxus: sure - East Wind nut butters, acorn seeds, Konegia (sp?) chocolate [8:14pm] paxus: sandhill sorgum [8:14pm] paxus: Skyhouses computer services [8:15pm] mike_ray: you feel consensus is more appropriate for a large scale community? [8:15pm] paxus: your decision making model is a cultural thing [8:15pm] paxus: we were born before the feminists tweaked consensus that they got from the quakers [8:16pm] paxus: Acorn uses consensus and has a more reliable decision making system as a function of it [8:16pm] paxus: and they are much smaller [8:16pm] paxus: i've used consensus a lot in my political work, including with groups much larger than us [8:16pm] mike_ray: what do you think of los horcones which also was inspired by walden two? [8:16pm] paxus: if you train people in it, you can get it to work [8:17pm] highermonkey: how big do you think you can get and still have a functioning consensus system? [8:17pm] paxus: i think ti succeeds because of the difference in the US and Mexican culture (in part) their principal recruiting is to the extended families of the existing members [8:17pm] paxus: this is a very souther world view - bring grandma in and your cousins [8:17pm] paxus: we dont do that so much in the states - we are all trying to escape from grandma by putting her in a home [8:18pm] paxus: and i am told the LH kids are amazing [8:18pm] paxus: tho i think our kids are pretty amazing too [8:18pm] highermonkey: THEIRS ARE PROABALY BETTER SOCCER PLAYERS [8:18pm] paxus: we used it w/ 10,000 at the actions at the Nevada Test site in 1984 [8:18pm] highermonkey: sorry about the caps lock [8:19pm] JessicaB: What kinds of things do you hear about the Los Horcones children that you like? [8:19pm] paxus: and someone had to carry out the communists who were not playing bythe agreed guidelines [8:19pm] ChristianMacy: well if we want soccer stars, mike, we'll have to help start a community in Brasil [8:19pm] paxus: WHat i have heard is that they are lively and inquisative, fun and respectful, attentive and alive (several people here have been there) [8:20pm] paxus: They are the success of behaviorism in many peoples eyes [8:20pm] mike_ray: what about a community in another country? could a twin oaks be started in Brazil? [8:20pm] paxus: perhaps - i know more about EUrope than SOuth America [8:20pm] paxus: the real question is what are you trying to get at by starting a Twin Oaks somewhere else [8:20pm] paxus: what we are experts in is sharing [8:21pm] paxus: we share it all - cars, clothes, bikes, business, romances, buildings, holdiays and more [8:21pm] paxus: if you want to export TO to somewhere else, it better be a place that can embrace high levels of sharing,or it simply cant work [8:21pm] mike_ray: what I would be getting at is a community model that could expand rapidly and grow to encompass anyone who wants to live in it [8:22pm] paxus: this could be by drawing from folx with a religious or shared spiritual background [8:22pm] paxus: which is not what we have done - of course [8:22pm] paxus: if you want to be available to anyone, you likely dont want to be income sharing - this is a big turn off for manym many people [8:23pm] paxus: you would want to do something moe like britenbush or harbin hot springs [8:23pm] mike_ray: do people dislike income sharing without trying it or after trying it? [8:23pm] paxus: which pay wages, provide services have a high degree of member autonomy [8:23pm] paxus: both [8:23pm] paxus: some folx think it is great until they cant get the community to pay X thousand dollars for the chinese medicine they want [8:24pm] highermonkey: just income sharing, or does jioning mean that all your stuff becomes community stuff? [8:24pm] paxus: of cant just buy a motorcycle and ride off into the sunset [8:24pm] paxus: NO [8:24pm] paxus: we are income sharing NOT asset sharing [8:24pm] paxus: (or debt sharing) [8:24pm] paxus: this means if you have money when you show up [8:25pm] mike_ray: well could it be possible to bring up the average income raised per member to allow for a higher quality of life? [8:25pm] paxus: you keep that money (or you can lend it to us and we give it back when you leave - have everythime, no matter how much a jerk youwere) [8:25pm] highermonkey: important distinction [8:25pm] paxus: we take interest and other income which your assets generate - because we are covering all your living costs [8:25pm] paxus: we regularly choose not to increase our average income [8:25pm] paxus: we prefer to work here [8:26pm] paxus: rathe than go ou and do higher $/hr work in the mainstream [8:26pm] paxus: i manage (with the lovely angie) an area called outside work [8:26pm] paxus: which sends people out into the outside world [8:26pm] mike_ray: so then higher average incomes usually mean working outside the community? What about phone or computer based work? [8:26pm] ChristianMacy: i think that what people don't like about sharing is that they've come to believe that you earn your individuality with the things you buy and the money you have [8:26pm] paxus: to work in construction, we have a google consultant, technical writing, demolition, house cleaning, etc [8:27pm] paxus: memebrs can keep up to half of this money and the rest goes to the commune and they get hours for that part of the work [8:27pm] paxus: and the quality of living (despite the below poverty line income) is quite high [8:27pm] ChristianMacy: the question might be how to preserve individuality without "traditional" capitalist definitions of the word [8:27pm] paxus: both materially and culturally [8:27pm] paxus: we have no shortage of individuals [8:28pm] SeanAbrahams: What would be different if Twin Oaks were wealthier? [8:28pm] paxus: we might by more food we cant produce - orange jiuce, coffee (which are around, but not community staples) [8:29pm] paxus: we would probably do some infrastructure repair work we put off [8:29pm] paxus: we re currently fixing several leaky roofs [8:29pm] highermonkey: do you guys do group murals at the community? [8:29pm] paxus: we have people making $50 and $60/hr working here as consultants [8:30pm] paxus: online or on the phone [8:30pm] paxus: no group murals, some solo projects [8:30pm] paxus: or small group i should say [8:30pm] paxus: we do group quilts [8:31pm] paxus: people dont like sharing things, because we have not built a culture around sharing which deals with wear and damge [8:31pm] paxus: this is one of the things TO is very good at, elaborated sharing systmes - dula public personal systems [8:32pm] paxus: any last questions ? [8:32pm] mike_ray: thanks for taking the time to answer our questions [8:32pm] SeanAbrahams: What keeps people at TO? [8:32pm] mike_ray: it's much later there than it is here [8:32pm] paxus: call me agian in 6 months - i fyou like [8:33pm] JessicaB: Thank you for coming! We know its a lot later for you than for most of us. [8:33pm] elysharom-povolo: thank you [8:33pm] JedBrensinger: thansk for coming [8:33pm] paxus: people stay for lots of reasons - i was quite frustrated witht he place 3 years back [8:33pm] mike_ray: six monthes it is! [8:33pm] highermonkey: Thanks for helping us out! [8:33pm] ChristianMacy: thanks very much paxus [8:33pm] paxus: and i stayed because it is a brilliant place for my son [8:33pm] highermonkey: I would very much like to visit someday.... [8:33pm] paxus: my partern stays because she doe snot want to work for money [8:34pm] ChristianMacy: also, please feel free to pop in on our meetings - don't feel like you need a formal invite in 6 months! [8:34pm] paxus: lots of people stay because they dont want a boss telling them what to do and the work schedule is amazingly flexible [8:34pm] paxus: if you want to come guest - writ eme at paxus@twinoaks.org [8:34pm] mike_ray: visiting would be nice [8:35pm] highermonkey: wouldn't it be cool if communes got so big and ubiquitous that eventually state and national borders became historical curiosities against the patchwork of communes? [8:35pm] mike_ray: I have tried twice already [8:35pm] SeanAbrahams: Excellent, thanks [8:35pm] paxus: in august we have heat lightning, fire flys and shooting stars - it is why they did not invent TV for 10,000 years [8:36pm] paxus: yes, national borders would make a nice memory [8:36pm] mike_ray: august it is [8:36pm] highermonkey: Saw fireflys once, in VA I beleive [8:37pm] paxus: an entomologist once told me that a fireflys blink is the equivalent of blowing a kiss [8:37pm] highermonkey left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!") [8:37pm] • mike_ray blows a kiss [8:37pm] paxus: thanks all - goodnight [8:38pm] SeanAbrahams: goodnight [8:38pm] mike_ray: night [8:38pm] paxus left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!") [8:38pm] JessicaB: good night! [8:38pm] JessicaB: I'm heading out too. Great talk tonight! [8:38pm] JedBrensinger: night [8:38pm] ChristianMacy: hey, just real quick [8:38pm] mike_ray: that quit message is hilarious [8:38pm] ChristianMacy: i downloaded this proj management thing [8:38pm] ChristianMacy: so if it's ok, i'd like to e-mail about the projects [8:39pm] mike_ray: sean had some killer project manager website thing awhile back [8:39pm] mike_ray: I don't remember the name [8:39pm] ChristianMacy: well i just wanted to make sure that everyone was ok with me e-mailing them at some point [8:39pm] JessicaB: sure [8:40pm] mike_ray: I am ok with it. [8:40pm] mike_ray: [8:40pm] JedBrensinger: sure [8:40pm] ChristianMacy: fantastic [8:40pm] ChristianMacy: elysha? Sean? [8:40pm] elysharom-povolo: of course [8:40pm] mike_ray: nighty night [8:40pm] mike_ray left the chat room. ("Leaving") [8:40pm] JedBrensinger: so do you guys want to try and meet at 6:30 again next week [8:40pm] ChristianMacy: definitely! [8:41pm] ChristianMacy: i promise to be on time and not futzing about with my client [8:41pm] SeanAbrahams: Yes, I was going to email as well [8:41pm] SeanAbrahams: Well, the 6:30 thing didn't work out as well as I'd hoped [8:41pm] ChristianMacy: well, let's post a precursor later this week [8:42pm] ChristianMacy: once i talk to everyone via e-mail about their projects, we can post something to let people know just what the purpose is [8:42pm] elysharom-povolo: my internet was going in and out so I don't think I transferred/received a bunch of stuff from earlier [8:42pm] SeanAbrahams: I'm willing to give it another shot, so 6:30 still works for me [8:42pm] JedBrensinger: sounds good [8:43pm] JessicaB: I won't be able to be there that early but I'll see you at 7:30. [8:43pm] elysharom-povolo: k [8:43pm] JessicaB: Good night. [8:43pm] elysharom-povolo: see you guys [8:43pm] SeanAbrahams: Bye Jessica [8:43pm] ChristianMacy: fantabulous I'll post what i have on the project thing later tonight [8:43pm] ChristianMacy: by! [8:43pm] JedBrensinger: bye [8:43pm] elysharom-povolo left the chat room. [8:43pm] ChristianMacy: sean, what was that proj man thing mike mentioned? [8:44pm] SeanAbrahams: http://basecamphq.com/ [8:44pm] JessicaB left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!") [8:44pm] SeanAbrahams: We were using the free version, but for it to be really useful for us we'd need to use the paid version [8:45pm] ChristianMacy: well let's try this open proj thing for now [8:45pm] SeanAbrahams: Sure [8:45pm] ChristianMacy: it seems to do everything we would need, though i'm woefully undereducated in this area [8:45pm] ChristianMacy: but i was thinking about what you'd said [8:45pm] ChristianMacy: (about me pming) [8:46pm] ChristianMacy: and my boss asked me to start working up to being a pm in our group [8:47pm] ChristianMacy: so i don't know if you had your heart set on it, but i'd like to change my mind and try being a pm on this project of projects [8:47pm] ChristianMacy: at least for a while [8:48pm] ChristianMacy: it's definitely not a mutually exclusive thing, though, so we could work together if you wanted to keep doing it. (or i could not do it and you could pm - both valid options) [8:49pm] SeanAbrahams: Absolutely [8:49pm] SeanAbrahams: We should both do what we can [8:49pm] SeanAbrahams: And hopefully we'll learn a lot [8:50pm] SeanAbrahams: Perhaps we can meet to talk about PM stuff after the weekly meetings? [8:50pm] SeanAbrahams: Not sure when a good time would be [8:50pm] ChristianMacy: how bout a different day? [8:50pm] ChristianMacy: i feel my mondays vanishing into the ether [8:50pm] ChristianMacy: maybe Thursdays? [8:51pm] ChristianMacy: btw, i think we can definitely use basecamp along with open project - basecamp for the communication, team site, etc [8:52pm] JedBrensinger: well guys, it's getting late, i'll see you next wek [8:52pm] ChristianMacy: ok jed [8:52pm] ChristianMacy: i'll ttyl this week on e-mail [8:52pm] JedBrensinger: alright [8:53pm] SeanAbrahams: Cool [8:53pm] JedBrensinger left the chat room. ("Java user signed off") [8:54pm] SeanAbrahams: I'm not sure about Basecamp anymore, but we'll figure something out [8:54pm] SeanAbrahams: We'll email later on to figure out a good time [8:55pm] ChristianMacy: ok [8:55pm] ChristianMacy: sounds good [8:55pm] ChristianMacy: have a good night, man [8:55pm] SeanAbrahams: I gotta run, thank