You changed the topic to "WaldenTwo.org - Weekly Meeting @ 7:30PM PST".
[7:03pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room.
[7:03pm] AugustineCastle is now known as JedBrensinger.
[7:04pm] AugustineCastle joined the chat room.
[7:05pm] AugustineCastle: what is up, my home dogs?
[7:05pm] AugustineCastle is now known as ChristianMacy.
[7:06pm] JedBrensinger: hey christian
[7:10pm] ChristianMacy: i heard you and mike were kinda lonely yesterday
[7:10pm] ChristianMacy: sorry i didn't make it 
[7:10pm] JedBrensinger: yeah, we were wondering what happend to everyone
[7:11pm] ChristianMacy: i have a semi-valid excuse, but that's all it is. Ultimately i planned incorrectly because i forgot.
[7:11pm] JedBrensinger: that's ok
[7:12pm] ChristianMacy: i can haz cheezburger?
[7:12pm] ChristianMacy: sorry - stupid LOLCats
[7:12pm] JedBrensinger: yeah i figured
[7:13pm] ChristianMacy: man, i've been trying to catch up to all the stuff you guys have already talked about and i feel like there's sooo much!
[7:13pm] ChristianMacy: all these topics discussed and put down on paper
[7:14pm] JedBrensinger: oh yeah, well don't feel too left out
[7:14pm] ChristianMacy: but it's really hard to find, because the Google Groups site doesn't allow for much organization
[7:14pm] JedBrensinger: I haven't been her much longer than you
[7:15pm] ChristianMacy: well do you know whether the target demographic has been discussed?
[7:15pm] ChristianMacy: or ideas on revenue generation?
[7:16pm] JedBrensinger: I'm not sure a target has been discussed, as it will realistically take all kinds to make this work
[7:16pm] JedBrensinger: if it has, it may have been in person, which leaves us with no real record
[7:17pm] ChristianMacy: it seems like there was a lot of activity about a year ago ...
[7:17pm] JedBrensinger: yeah, I'm out of the loop in that respect
[7:18pm] JedBrensinger: I've never got to meet anyone and talk face to face
[7:18pm] seanabrahams: Yes, we've discussed those things 
[7:18pm] JedBrensinger: hey sean
[7:18pm] ChristianMacy: what the dealio, sean?
[7:19pm] ChristianMacy: so do you know what's up with the activity on the group? seems like it was real active for a month or two around a year ago, then quieted down a lot
[7:20pm] seanabrahams: In the book Walden Two, the target demographic is "the uncommitted", which are people who do not have pre-existing commitments, such as a family to support or anything that would conflict with them joining a community
[7:20pm] seanabrahams: Ah, group activity is the reflection of time available to work on the community
[7:21pm] seanabrahams: We've spent the past year going from knowing virtually nothing about how to start a community to learning lots
[7:21pm] You are now known as SeanAbrahams.
[7:22pm] ChristianMacy: it seems i have a *lot* to catch up on
[7:22pm] SeanAbrahams: Mike Ray and I have been the principal drivers, and about a year ago was when we had the most time to work on it
[7:22pm] SeanAbrahams: ChristianMacy: Actually, I think you're fine
[7:23pm] SeanAbrahams: What you're experiencing is something that needs to be remedied with a FAQ or similar device
[7:23pm] ChristianMacy: i was actually thinking about that
[7:24pm] ChristianMacy: as i mentioned to jed, it's hard to scour the site for info without getting bogged down
[7:24pm] ChristianMacy: it would be great if we could organize it
[7:24pm] ChristianMacy: i just don't think google groups allows for that level of organization
[7:25pm] SeanAbrahams: Yes, Google Groups has many advantages in my opinion but also has much to be desired
[7:26pm] SeanAbrahams: rather, leaves much to be desired
[7:26pm] ChristianMacy: it might be a good place to host most discussion, etc, until maybe we can set up a site that has what we want/need?
[7:27pm] SeanAbrahams: I came across this http://civicrm.org/ which might be a good fit for our web presence needs
[7:28pm] SeanAbrahams: But using it would require some significant investment
[7:28pm] SeanAbrahams: Google Groups is nice because it's hands off
[7:28pm] SeanAbrahams: I think we can work on the FAQ page
[7:29pm] SeanAbrahams:        http://groups.google.com/group/walden-two-talk/web/w2-talk-faq    
[7:29pm] ChristianMacy: whoa - i think CRM might be a little much for right now ... maybe just a site that has the basics with potential to expand, hosted through something like godaddy?
[7:30pm] elysharom-povolo joined the chat room.
[7:30pm] elysharom-povolo: hiya
[7:31pm] ChristianMacy: hey elysha 
[7:31pm] ChristianMacy: SeanAbrahams: actually, now that i look at it, i think maybe you're on to something with the civicrm
[7:31pm] ChristianMacy: we could probably use a small amount of its functionality for member/group management
[7:32pm] ChristianMacy: but use something else for our presence/home base on the interwebs
[7:33pm] SeanAbrahams: Yeah, I should also see if what Obama's site is using is available
[7:33pm] ChristianMacy was promoted to operator by you.
[7:33pm] elysharom-povolo was promoted to operator by you.
[7:33pm] JedBrensinger was promoted to operator by you.
[7:33pm] ChristianMacy: hmmm did you see this Joomla thing?
[7:33pm] SeanAbrahams: JedBrensinger: I assume from previous comment that you and Mike Ray were the only 2 that showed up last night?
[7:34pm] ChristianMacy: its an open-source site development thing that interfaces with your civicrm
[7:34pm] JedBrensinger: Sean: yes
[7:36pm] SeanAbrahams: Anyone have any news in anticipation of Jessica's and Mike's arrival?
[7:36pm] SeanAbrahams: Whoops, I mean, anything new while we wait for them?
[7:37pm] ChristianMacy: heh heh - i was a little confuddled on that one
[7:37pm] SeanAbrahams: I noticed your posting about costs Christian
[7:37pm] ChristianMacy: it's very much an estimate and doesn't take into account a lot of things
[7:38pm] ChristianMacy: but it's a start 
[7:38pm] ChristianMacy: but yeah, not gonna be cheap
[7:38pm] SeanAbrahams: Starts are good
[7:38pm] ChristianMacy: the other problem i was thinking of is this:
[7:38pm] ChristianMacy: if we're a non-profit, we can't retain any money at the end of the year (i don't think)
[7:39pm] ChristianMacy: that shoots down my idea about a portfolio that we could use to supplement expenditures
[7:39pm] ChristianMacy: well ... at least the easy way of doing it
[7:40pm] elysharom-povolo: we could also be a foundation
[7:40pm] SeanAbrahams: I'm not sure if non-profit means an inability to retrain money
[7:40pm] SeanAbrahams: retain
[7:40pm] ChristianMacy: i think it does, though. because it only becomes profit if you don't spend it on anything during the year
[7:41pm] ChristianMacy: or at least this is what i remember from accounting
[7:41pm] ChristianMacy: but like i said, i don't know for positive
[7:41pm] elysharom-povolo: I am not sure about that
[7:42pm] elysharom-povolo: a lot of non-profits use profit making models these days
[7:42pm] elysharom-povolo: Obviously something to look into
[7:42pm] ChristianMacy: well let's definitely find out
[7:42pm] ChristianMacy: lol - jinx
[7:42pm] elysharom-povolo: otherwise we might be able to act as a foundation
[7:43pm] JedBrensinger: I also wondering what the distinction is between non-profit and not-for-profit
[7:43pm] elysharom-povolo: foundations can definitely use investments
[7:43pm] SeanAbrahams: If Wikipedia is correct: "However, an NPO may accept, hold and disburse money and other things of value. It may also legally and ethically trade at a profit or hold investments, usually restricted to use any funds resulting from such commercial enterprises, solely and exclusively for attaining the organization's aims."
[7:43pm] ChristianMacy: JedBrensinger is there one?
[7:43pm] elysharom-povolo: 1. non-profits serve a cause in arts, education, environment, non-political
[7:44pm] elysharom-povolo: 2. something to do with ownership structure
[7:44pm] elysharom-povolo: I mean, you can't 'invest' in a non-profit or 'own' a non-profit
[7:45pm] SeanAbrahams: I think it can keep funds as long as when they are used, they are used for purposes that further the organization's goals
[7:45pm] SeanAbrahams: But I will look into it and find a definitive answer
[7:45pm] ChristianMacy: well hey, buildings and food would count, i should think.
[7:46pm] ChristianMacy: find out if we could invest it and how it would work with the interest
[7:47pm] SeanAbrahams: All right, noted
[7:47pm] ChristianMacy: i was also looking into whether we could pull off selling green credits or something like that
[7:47pm] ChristianMacy: but it seems unlikely
[7:48pm] SeanAbrahams: Well, we can use incentives for donations
[7:48pm] ChristianMacy: it seems to me like something we need to do is find an angle to get corporations to donate
[7:48pm] ChristianMacy: what kind of incentives?
[7:48pm] elysharom-povolo: I think our most valuable comodity will be knowledge
[7:48pm] SeanAbrahams: such as bumper stickers, bags, etc
[7:48pm] elysharom-povolo: the problem is that we need the money to gain the knowledge
[7:48pm] SeanAbrahams: Usually when you donate to a non-profit they give you something in return
[7:48pm] elysharom-povolo: not necesarily
[7:48pm] ChristianMacy: and how do we sell them knowledge? kinda hard to quantify...
[7:49pm] elysharom-povolo: books, self-help, books about our experience 'modeling' sustainability
[7:49pm] elysharom-povolo: etc
[7:49pm] ChristianMacy: hmm ... could work ...
[7:49pm] ChristianMacy: maybe classes?
[7:49pm] elysharom-povolo: as M Ray pointed out, the self-help book industry is the most successful in books
[7:50pm] elysharom-povolo: if we can turn out something that uses behavior analysis it will both promote our mission and make us money
[7:50pm] SeanAbrahams: Yes, that is one of our main ideas on how to generate money outside of fundraising
[7:50pm] ChristianMacy: i guess that was kinda where i was going, though i don't know if i realized it
[7:50pm] ChristianMacy: what's our mission? what do we tell people we're going for?
[7:51pm] ChristianMacy: do we have that already? or an idea of it?
[7:51pm] elysharom-povolo: we did some brainstorming a while back
[7:52pm] SeanAbrahams: Formulating our message has been a major part of our efforts
[7:52pm] SeanAbrahams: I don't think we've organized it though
[7:52pm] SeanAbrahams: Based on Elysha's talk, I think we really need to spend some time packaging it
[7:53pm] ChristianMacy: well, no solid ideas from me, but i would think we'd want something that would both sound good to people for joining and good to companies for giving
[7:53pm] SeanAbrahams: And I think the FAQ I linked to earlier gives good insight into our message
[7:53pm] SeanAbrahams: One slogan I liked, but wasn't taken up enthusiastically for reasons I can't remember was "Sustaining Life"
[7:54pm] ChristianMacy: my gut says "too idealogical". not that i think that, because as it happens i agree, but as an outsider to the idea that's how it might sound
[7:54pm] elysharom-povolo: that is how non-profits are though
[7:55pm] ChristianMacy: one of my favorite sayings, and you may get tired of hearing this, is:
[7:55pm] ChristianMacy: just because it's the way it's always been done, doesn't mean it's the right thing.
[7:55pm] elysharom-povolo: idealistic, that is
[7:55pm] elysharom-povolo: that is a great message
[7:55pm] SeanAbrahams: Yeah, challenging assumptions is good
[7:56pm] ChristianMacy: it's probably the only reason my boss keeps me around 
[7:56pm] ChristianMacy: my biggest problem is challenging without doing research, so sometimes i'll raise a question or posit a suggestion you'll have heard before because i didn't look hard enough
[7:56pm] ChristianMacy: it's something i'm trying to work on
[7:56pm] SeanAbrahams: I'm glad you're asking these questions because in light of Mike Ray's and Jessica's absence I was going to suggest that we spend this time thinking about what we should be thinking about 
[7:57pm] ChristianMacy: everything works out in the end, am i right?
[7:57pm] SeanAbrahams: We're not in a position to say RTFM to anyone right now
[7:57pm] ChristianMacy: um ... rtfm?
[7:57pm] SeanAbrahams: RTFM = Read The Fucking Manual
[7:57pm] ChristianMacy: lol
[7:58pm] ChristianMacy: nice 
[7:58pm] SeanAbrahams: It's used when people ask questions that could be answered if they just bothered to read already existing documentation or a manual... Computer Programming slang
[7:58pm] ChristianMacy: well since we're ok with me bringing up old topics, and taking our question of a message a little further...
[7:59pm] ChristianMacy: what about that target demographic?
[7:59pm] ChristianMacy: i know you mentioned the unattached
[7:59pm] ChristianMacy: but if we had to expand that out a little ...
[7:59pm] SeanAbrahams: I'd rather have you ask the questions than get bogged down in trying to find the answers in the Google Group archives... We're not so large and powerful that we can risk people losing interest because we don't want to personally answer questions
[7:59pm] ChristianMacy: well i don't mind reading - so if you point me in the right direction i'll do it!
[8:00pm] ChristianMacy: heck, i'm even considering going through the 407 discussion threads to catch up
[8:00pm] elysharom-povolo: I don't think we have thought much on target audience
[8:00pm] elysharom-povolo: beyond people who are already exposed and interested to the ideas
[8:00pm] SeanAbrahams: Actually, we have, we just haven't formally documented it
[8:01pm] ChristianMacy: well let me vent my brain for a second, then let's reconcile
[8:01pm] elysharom-povolo: go for it
[8:01pm] SeanAbrahams: When Mike Ray and I started thinking about Walden Two, it was from a position of already having faith in the philosophies and science that it's based on
[8:02pm] ChristianMacy: i was walking (one of two times my mind wanders A LOT)
[8:02pm] SeanAbrahams: Ok
[8:03pm] ChristianMacy: and we passed a homeless guy. I was already thinking about how the "lower" to "middle" class really comprises the majority of the population
[8:03pm] ChristianMacy: i think the best way to effect a change in our society with W2K is to start from the ground up
[8:04pm] ChristianMacy: if we target our efforts on the people who would benefit most from it, we'll have a hard time NOT getting enough people
[8:04pm] ChristianMacy: hold on - i'm going somewhere weird with this
[8:04pm] SeanAbrahams: Yes, these are the same conclusions we've come to
[8:04pm] ChristianMacy: beyond that, think of the whole society as a factory
[8:04pm] elysharom-povolo: like how the poor couple joins but the rich couple doesnt in the novel
[8:05pm] ChristianMacy: if we "enlist" all the workers, who has to do the work?
[8:05pm] ChristianMacy: the managers become the workers, but they start disliking where they're at
[8:05pm] ChristianMacy: soon they consider W2
[8:05pm] ChristianMacy: after that it wouldn't matter, but essentially the owners would end up joining up for the same reason
[8:06pm] ChristianMacy: but you're exactly right - that does happen in the book
[8:06pm] ChristianMacy: the only slight difference is that one of the rich kids wanted to join up
[8:07pm] SeanAbrahams: Because he was made more aware by the war
[8:07pm] elysharom-povolo: for intellectual reasons
[8:07pm] ChristianMacy: it illustrates that if demonstrated not only the benefits of W2, but the ill circumstances otherwise, the rich would join as well
[8:07pm] elysharom-povolo: right
[8:07pm] SeanAbrahams: Yeah, that's a great description
[8:07pm] ChristianMacy: so i guess that kindof shows the two parts, right?
[8:07pm] ChristianMacy: you can't just show a person a utopia
[8:07pm] ChristianMacy: you have to give them the context in which to see it
[8:08pm] ChristianMacy: Walden Two: Our grass is greener because you're stepping on yours.
[8:08pm] ChristianMacy: heh heh - sorry
[8:08pm] elysharom-povolo: that is pretty funny actually
[8:09pm] SeanAbrahams: I think you've given a great context to the question of which demographic to target
[8:10pm] ChristianMacy: so you guys are thinking along the same lines?
[8:10pm] SeanAbrahams: But essentially, the uncommitted and the poor have been what Mike R and I have talked most about
[8:10pm] SeanAbrahams: Precisely the same lines
[8:10pm] SeanAbrahams: And even more specifically, college graduates
[8:10pm] SeanAbrahams: Or high school graduates
[8:11pm] ChristianMacy: well, remember the homeless guy i mentioned? what about soup kitchens, etc?
[8:11pm] JedBrensinger: I've often thought of things like this too
[8:12pm] ChristianMacy: i know how it might sound, but i feel like if anyone deserves a utopia, and would work to have it, it would be people who need shelter and food
[8:12pm] SeanAbrahams: It all depends on the reasons for them being homeless
[8:12pm] elysharom-povolo: yeah... you have to be careful though
[8:12pm] ChristianMacy: oh i agree
[8:12pm] SeanAbrahams: Coming from the mecca of homelessness, the reasons are incredibly varied
[8:12pm] JedBrensinger: the possibility of running some type of orphanage/group home seems like a way of getting members
[8:12pm] SeanAbrahams: Mecca of homelessness meaning San Francisco
[8:13pm] ChristianMacy: i agree, jed - that was actually one of the angles i was thinking of for corporate donations, but it seemed like dangerous ground
[8:13pm] SeanAbrahams: and if I had to venture a guess, the largest cause of homelessness here is substance addiction
[8:13pm] elysharom-povolo: it does but we don't want to also be faced with having to deal with drug addiction and inheriting a set of problems that American society has created
[8:13pm] ChristianMacy: well, from my time in new york, i know what you mean, sean
[8:14pm] ChristianMacy: i totally agree, but maybe a halfway home or something like it?
[8:14pm] SeanAbrahams: If we have a powerful technology of behavior that can help such people, then I would be 100% for it
[8:14pm] elysharom-povolo: Ideally we would have normal people with varying levels of education and different skill sets
[8:14pm] elysharom-povolo: right?
[8:14pm] ChristianMacy: they could have shelter and be given food for work while they get over their issues
[8:14pm] ChristianMacy: (if they can)
[8:15pm] ChristianMacy: elysharom-povolo: true - very true
[8:15pm] SeanAbrahams: I think are largest problem is organizational
[8:15pm] SeanAbrahams: our
[8:15pm] ChristianMacy: so i would say if we were going for a population mix, we might want something like 60/40
[8:16pm] SeanAbrahams: And it may be that once we are properly organized, we won't need to do much outreach
[8:16pm] ChristianMacy: no, you know what? scratch my last.
[8:16pm] ChristianMacy: that's true Sean
[8:16pm] ChristianMacy: i think that if we have a good structure, a solid organization
[8:16pm] SeanAbrahams: 200 interested people may be much easier to find than we think
[8:16pm] elysharom-povolo: I feel like there are a lot of places that target the homeless population with lots of different approaches... I just don't see that as W2's aim - it gets into a whole other realm of work
[8:17pm] ChristianMacy: i agree
[8:17pm] ChristianMacy: i'm definitely not saying to target them exclusively
[8:17pm] ChristianMacy: just not to exclude them
[8:17pm] SeanAbrahams: I'd like W2 to address the problems that people who are homeless currently deal with
[8:17pm] ChristianMacy: i think our biggest target should be "blue collar" workers
[8:18pm] ChristianMacy: (does blue collar mean lower to middle class?)
[8:18pm] ChristianMacy: I definitely agree, Sean
[8:19pm] ChristianMacy: i just want to be wary of putting utopia in the same context as a kind of selective "best of" society
[8:19pm] SeanAbrahams: And I think it addresses homelessness due to lack of opportunity right away
[8:19pm] ChristianMacy: like the one that Burrhus originally accuses Frazier of having set up
[8:20pm] elysharom-povolo: well anyone can join right?
[8:20pm] SeanAbrahams: I'm not so much concerned with that problem
[8:20pm] ChristianMacy: well, they did have a selection process
[8:20pm] elysharom-povolo: I think our main thing at first is just that people are really interested in the ideas behind it
[8:20pm] elysharom-povolo: or the opportunity
[8:22pm] ChristianMacy: so i guess my next question is: do we get all the people first? or start the community and get people as we get closer to the opening
[8:22pm] ChristianMacy: i mean, not that they're mutually exclusive,
[8:23pm] mike_ray joined the chat room.
[8:23pm] SeanAbrahams: I think we do what we can
[8:23pm] ChristianMacy: just wondering if we're waiting for numbers?
[8:23pm] SeanAbrahams: So it will be likely that we still start the community prior to having 200+ people who are ready to move
[8:23pm] ChristianMacy: hey Mike 
[8:23pm] mike_ray: Howdy
[8:23pm] elysharom-povolo: We also don't want to fall into a trap of "taking advantage" in a way of people who have nothing to lose... I mean, although we might be recruiting with good intentions, if you saw scientologists targeting the poorest of the poor by offering food and shelter in exchange for work, you would really scratch your head
[8:23pm] SeanAbrahams: But if we can start the community with 200+ people then we will
[8:24pm] ChristianMacy: elysharom-povolo: true - i'm always a little concerned about how to manage the public image so we don't seem like a cult
[8:24pm] elysharom-povolo: It is almost like you are taking away a choice that is crucial to the whole thing.
[8:25pm] SeanAbrahams: I think that as we get ourselves organized, this may be a small, or non, issue
[8:25pm] elysharom-povolo: yeah
[8:25pm] mike_ray: ChristianMacy: cult is almost impossible to define
[8:25pm] ChristianMacy: i would say it's as easy as the difference between religion and myth
[8:25pm] SeanAbrahams: So, unless we can't get the numbers we need
[8:25pm] SeanAbrahams: Target Audience=  The educated, skilled, and uncommitted.
[8:25pm] ChristianMacy: a myth is other people's religions
[8:26pm] elysharom-povolo: Sean: I think that would be target #2
[8:26pm] elysharom-povolo: Target #1: Self-identified Walden enthusiasts
[8:27pm] ChristianMacy: i don't know that i agree ... skilled and uncommitted, yes
[8:27pm] ChristianMacy: but i wonder at the value of an education
[8:27pm] ChristianMacy: (a traditional one by our standards, anyway)
[8:27pm] elysharom-povolo: I don't think that those words were meant to mean people who had all three... I think he meant one or the other
[8:27pm] SeanAbrahams: Yes, I should have put an "or" instead of "and". Thanks Elysha
[8:28pm] ChristianMacy: oh - well that i can get behind 
[8:28pm] elysharom-povolo: I would rank skilled the highest of those three as well
[8:29pm] SeanAbrahams: I agree
[8:29pm] SeanAbrahams: Academics can derail progress
[8:30pm] elysharom-povolo: at the same time the research and evaluation aspect is integral, so let's not rule out existing knowledge
[8:30pm] elysharom-povolo: but perhaps instead of think of that as education, we could think of that as another skillset that is required
[8:30pm] ChristianMacy: it's true
[8:31pm] mike_ray: I agree, Academics can be very uh not helpful
[8:31pm] ChristianMacy: almost like the skill of intelligent thinking 
[8:31pm] elysharom-povolo: yeah
[8:31pm] elysharom-povolo: haha
[8:32pm] SeanAbrahams: Your presence has been really positive Christian, thanks
[8:32pm] elysharom-povolo: Yeah totally
[8:32pm] ChristianMacy: it's nice to be listened to/appreciated
[8:32pm] ChristianMacy: don't let it get to my head, though 
[8:32pm] mike_ray: 'thou art mortal'
[8:33pm] ChristianMacy: i have yet to see proof of that, Mike 
[8:33pm] ChristianMacy: (of course, by the time i do ... i'll be dead. hmm.)
[8:33pm] SeanAbrahams: My thinking for us progressing revolves around further establishing our online presence and being organized enough so that when someone new shows up have something for them to do
[8:34pm] SeanAbrahams: _we have_
[8:34pm] ChristianMacy: yeah - definitely. It'd be easier to keep our forward momentum, too
[8:34pm] ChristianMacy: it's funny, but i actually had no idea why you added "we have"
[8:34pm] ChristianMacy: somehow i'd read the whole thing and missed that you'd missed it
[8:35pm] ChristianMacy: brain's a strange thing
[8:35pm] SeanAbrahams: I didn't notice the first time either 
[8:35pm] mike_ray: behavior's a strange thing (too)
[8:35pm] SeanAbrahams: Mike, do you recall us having a project outline anywhere?
[8:35pm] elysharom-povolo: m. ray: nice
[8:36pm] SeanAbrahams: for Walden Two... meaning an outline of what is needed to go from now to Walden Two
[8:36pm] ChristianMacy: it brings up an interesting train of thought which leads inevitably to the conclusion that language, as an organic and developing thing, tends toward efficiency
[8:36pm] mike_ray: Sean: you had that project manager website if that is what you mean?
[8:36pm] mike_ray: the many tents plan was something of the sort
[8:36pm] SeanAbrahams: Yes, I was thinking of those too
[8:37pm] SeanAbrahams: I'd like to put together a rough outline of the things we need
[8:37pm] mike_ray: the plan needed some organizational documents and we have a rough contitution, code, etc
[8:37pm] SeanAbrahams: There has been a lot of "what skills do we need" but I'm thinking more concrete things
[8:38pm] SeanAbrahams: Such as
[8:38pm] SeanAbrahams: How To Build a Walden Two: What You Need
[8:38pm] ChristianMacy: that actually reminds me - do we have any project managers? i mean people who do that kind of thing or enjoy it a lot?
[8:38pm] ChristianMacy: (sorry, not trying to interrupt)
[8:38pm] SeanAbrahams: - X number of interested people to fill these roles: Role1, Role2, Role3, etc
[8:39pm] SeanAbrahams: We do not
[8:39pm] SeanAbrahams: Although I would suggest that perhaps you are our first 
[8:40pm] SeanAbrahams: Based on your instigating the projects 2 weeks ago
[8:40pm] ChristianMacy: i wouldn't be any good - sorry  i'm working on that aspect of myself, but i'm not there
[8:40pm] ChristianMacy: i'm a now kind a guy - i have a hard time holding onto things
[8:40pm] SeanAbrahams: It would be good to invite someone who has experience with organizing volunteers
[8:41pm] ChristianMacy: i can try to find a PMP ... or someone who was going for one.
[8:41pm] mike_ray: Dave from MAGIC has practical experience I think
[8:41pm] ChristianMacy: we have a whole project management office at my work, and i have someone in mind
[8:41pm] ChristianMacy: Dave is speaking in ... two weeks?
[8:41pm] mike_ray: I think so
[8:42pm] ChristianMacy: well maybe that could be another two week project - lining up some project managers
[8:43pm] ChristianMacy: i have a lot of business school contacts, and a lot of entrepeneurially minded people
[8:43pm] ChristianMacy: i can do some digging along with working on my spreadsheet.
[8:44pm] mike_ray: Christian: nice work on the spreadsheet, I just looked at it
[8:44pm] ChristianMacy: thanks 
[8:44pm] ChristianMacy: needs a lot of input, though. Real estate and construction are total assumptions.
[8:44pm] mike_ray: Yes, next week Paxus, then David Schrom
[8:45pm] ChristianMacy: do you think we could get Jessica to do a quick write up of her experiences and e-mail it out in lieu of the meeting?
[8:45pm] mike_ray: if we have to hire people (and even Thoreau hired people)
[8:46pm] mike_ray: I guess I should have mentioned th eneed for backup speakers
[8:46pm] mike_ray: in case something like this happens
[8:46pm] ChristianMacy: i'm pretty sure i could get someone to work with us for free. (i can't think of the latin phrase)
[8:46pm] SeanAbrahams: I would like to define Project Management because if we all understand what is involved, a solution may arise
[8:46pm] SeanAbrahams: pro-bono
[8:46pm] ChristianMacy: right!
[8:46pm] ChristianMacy: thanks 
[8:47pm] ChristianMacy: for the good
[8:47pm] ChristianMacy: is that right?
[8:47pm] SeanAbrahams: not sure if that's the latin phrase
[8:47pm] ChristianMacy: sounds italian ...
[8:47pm] SeanAbrahams: but it's the common phrase I'm aware of
[8:47pm] elysharom-povolo: think so
[8:47pm] SeanAbrahams: gratis
[8:47pm] ChristianMacy: anyways, that's what i meant 
[8:47pm] ChristianMacy: working for free to claim it on their resume later
[8:48pm] ChristianMacy: you have to admit - this would be a hell of a resume stuffer
[8:48pm] ChristianMacy: as to what i'd image a PM to do for us: track projects and resources, timelines, etc
[8:49pm] ChristianMacy: they could track who was doing what and help dole out new tasks to people who could handle it
[8:49pm] ChristianMacy: also keeping an eye on available hours
[8:49pm] ChristianMacy: (we'd each submit how many hours we thought we could work on W2 per week)
[8:49pm] SeanAbrahams: Yeah, knowing who to delegate tasks to is important
[8:49pm] mike_ray: a mini-labor credit system
[8:50pm] ChristianMacy: Might not be a bad idea ... just hard to reconcile with everyone's varying work/life balance
[8:50pm] mike_ray: can't know until you try it
[8:50pm] ChristianMacy: absolutely!
[8:50pm] SeanAbrahams: which is why I mentioned getting someone with experience managing volunteers
[8:51pm] mike_ray: that would be ideal
[8:51pm] ChristianMacy: yeah, i can see the benefit
[8:51pm] SeanAbrahams: How do we motivate volunteers without getting to the point of making them regret volunteering
[8:51pm] ChristianMacy: does anyone have any leads aside david from magic and my connections?
[8:51pm] mike_ray: positive rewards, recognition, praise, etc
[8:52pm] SeanAbrahams: Sunday services
[8:52pm] ChristianMacy: i think there's also something to be said for just accomplishing W2
[8:52pm] mike_ray: if we could get someone to donate land to us
[8:52pm] mike_ray: that would get the ball rolling
[8:53pm] mike_ray: alternately, an ideal spot we could get at a good rate
[8:53pm] ChristianMacy: land's definitely not going to be cheap, but assuming we get a mortgage, it's really probably low on the cost list
[8:53pm] ChristianMacy: the actual building(s) on the other hand ...
[8:54pm] ChristianMacy: ok folks - i think this is me signing off.
[8:54pm] SeanAbrahams: Cool
[8:54pm] mike_ray: I should go as well
[8:54pm] ChristianMacy: did anyone have a chance to work on their projects / upload them?
[8:54pm] mike_ray: nighty night 
[8:55pm] ChristianMacy: night, mike 
[8:55pm] mike_ray left the chat room. ("out")
[8:55pm] SeanAbrahams: I know Elysha did some work
[8:55pm] SeanAbrahams: I've done little since last week
[8:55pm] SeanAbrahams: I'll get Elysha to post her findings thus far and I will do the same
[8:55pm] ChristianMacy: sounds good 
[8:55pm] ChristianMacy: Jed?
[8:55pm] SeanAbrahams: Jed was to look into construction
[8:56pm] JedBrensinger: i haven't done much unless you count seeing some more college dorm setups
[8:56pm] ChristianMacy: every little bit helps 
[8:56pm] SeanAbrahams: That's ok... I think we need to put down more concrete tasks
[8:56pm] JedBrensinger: and just more general thinking
[8:56pm] SeanAbrahams: I'll spend some time now coming up with some
[8:56pm] ChristianMacy: i agree, Sean ...
[8:57pm] ChristianMacy: having a realistic deliverable in mind would probably help
[8:58pm] ChristianMacy: ok, so how about this?
[8:58pm] ChristianMacy: what if we each develop a timeline of deliverables that we think we can stick to?
[8:58pm] ChristianMacy: that's still Walden, but helps us move
[8:59pm] SeanAbrahams: I think that's harder than it sounds
[9:00pm] SeanAbrahams: but maybe I'm misunderstanding
[9:00pm] ChristianMacy: true, but it's like anything - if you sit down for an hour and just start putting things down you should be able to have a rough idea
[9:00pm] ChristianMacy: like for example, if i break my task down, i'd say that in a week i should be able to create an estimate for one year
[9:00pm] SeanAbrahams: We can try starting these meetings at 6:30PST where we check in and then spend the time from 6:30 to 7:30 on doing our assigned stuff
[9:01pm] ChristianMacy: one sheet on my spreadsheet, totally filled out
[9:01pm] ChristianMacy: that's a good idea
[9:01pm] ChristianMacy: project time, then discussion time
[9:01pm] ChristianMacy: because we definitely need to keep the momentum up with tasks. and we need to have a good, organized place to put our results
[9:02pm] SeanAbrahams: Yes
[9:02pm] SeanAbrahams: I'll try acting as project manager until we find someone with more experience or more time
[9:02pm] ChristianMacy: ok - let me know whatever support you need
[9:03pm] ChristianMacy: alright - i'm out like a trout
[9:03pm] SeanAbrahams: Cool
[9:03pm] JedBrensinger: see you next week
[9:03pm] SeanAbrahams: We'll try the 6:30 thing out next week
[9:03pm] SeanAbrahams: if that works for you guys
[9:03pm] ChristianMacy: i'm going to work on getting one year of projection, plus a PM, plus think about how to get the site where we need it
[9:03pm] ChristianMacy: totally - post it 
[9:04pm] SeanAbrahams: Please do Christian, it would be motivational
[9:04pm] SeanAbrahams: lead by example 
[9:04pm] JedBrensinger: works for me, you want me to add that to next weeks meeting announcement, the 6:30
[9:04pm] SeanAbrahams: Yes please
[9:04pm] JedBrensinger: altight
[9:04pm] SeanAbrahams: You can make a distinction
[9:04pm] JedBrensinger: ok, i'll be sure to
[9:04pm] ChristianMacy: OK guys - see ya later.
[9:05pm] JedBrensinger: later
[9:05pm] SeanAbrahams: Something like, "For those of you who have projects assigned, please be there at 6:30 to check in and spend 6:30 to 7:30 working on your project."
[9:05pm] ChristianMacy: Keep in mind: this is happening. We're in the middle of it. There's something awesome about that.
[9:05pm] ChristianMacy left the chat room. ("Give me the Square Deal Pants Store and the Hamburgteria instead!")
[9:05pm] JedBrensinger: ok
[9:07pm] JedBrensinger: guess i should get going, time really flies when you're 3 timezones away
[9:10pm] JedBrensinger: see you next week
[9:16pm] SeanAbrahams: All right
[9:16pm] SeanAbrahams: Cheers Jed
[9:16pm] JedBrensinger: night