[6:24pm] mike_ray joined the chat room. [6:50pm] highermonkey joined the chat room. [7:30pm] JedBrensinger joined the chat room. [7:30pm] script_on_gotcha: Howdy jed [7:30pm] JedBrensinger: hi there [7:30pm] script_on_gotcha: jessica says she might be able to make it [7:30pm] script_on_gotcha: mike m. is here (higher monkey) [7:31pm] script_on_gotcha: roger mc. says he cant do mondays [7:31pm] JedBrensinger: is that another of mike rays clones [7:31pm] script_on_gotcha: who? [7:31pm] JedBrensinger: you [7:31pm] script_on_gotcha: I have only one clone up [7:31pm] script_on_gotcha: oh yeah [7:31pm] script_on_gotcha: sorry [7:31pm] script_on_gotcha is now known as mike_ray. [7:32pm] JedBrensinger: just wasnt sure, but figured [7:32pm] mike_ray: the java client is not as good [7:32pm] Jessica0 joined the chat room. [7:32pm] mike_ray: I shelled into gotcha and this client supports logging [7:32pm] mike_ray: howdy jessica0 [7:32pm] Jessica0: hi! [7:32pm] mike_ray: sean indicates that his client is also set up to log [7:32pm] highermonkey: howdy, everyone! [7:33pm] mike_ray: hi mike m. [7:33pm] Jessica0: Is howdy the new official greeting? [7:33pm] JedBrensinger: it looks like it, it's catching on [7:33pm] mike_ray: I am ok with howdy [7:33pm] mike_ray: it's folksy [7:33pm] highermonkey: Howdy's coo. so what's on the menu this evening? [7:34pm] mike_ray: suggestive of a rural existence, a walden [7:34pm] mike_ray: higher: I was going to do an online forum on Walden Two and Self Control: past present and future [7:34pm] mike_ray: jed: you want me to start? [7:34pm] Jessica0: So do we all just read for a little while? [7:35pm] JedBrensinger: does anyone know it elysha is coming? [7:35pm] mike_ray: I was assuming that you would have had a chance to glance at it [7:35pm] mike_ray: jed: sean would know? [7:35pm] JedBrensinger: is sean with us now [7:35pm] highermonkey: Oh yea, in the announcement [7:36pm] mike_ray: he is logged in, but he might be "multi-tasking" as they say [7:36pm] JedBrensinger: let's see if this gets him back [7:36pm] JedBrensinger: seanabrahams [7:36pm] mike_ray: seanabrahams [7:36pm] JedBrensinger: guess he doesn't hear us [7:37pm] mike_ray: Jed: so what would you like to do? [7:38pm] JedBrensinger: we can get started if you're ready [7:38pm] mike_ray: I am ready [7:38pm] JedBrensinger: alright then [7:38pm] mike_ray: so the topic of my "online forum" is walden two and self control: past, present and future [7:38pm] mike_ray: since this is an online forum feel free to ask me questions at any time [7:38pm] mike_ray: the past is represented by the novel walden two [7:38pm] highermonkey: and its sources [7:39pm] mike_ray: and how skinner portrays self-control in w2 and in science and human behavior [7:39pm] mike_ray: sources? [7:39pm] mike_ray: so in walden two self-control is presented as a fully functioning technology [7:40pm] mike_ray: it unites the community and makes it work [7:40pm] mike_ray: Frazier uses a self-control pamphlet to cure himself of jealousy [7:40pm] mike_ray: for example [7:40pm] mike_ray: in science and human behavior skinner talks about self-control as a means used to avoid conditioned guilt [7:40pm] highermonkey: sources include Walden one, Utopia, Republic [7:41pm] seanabrahams: Hello [7:41pm] mike_ray: sources for self-control? I haven't read More or Plato's Republic so I am not sure [7:41pm] mike_ray: hi sean [7:41pm] You left the chat by being disconnected from the server. [7:42pm] You rejoined the room. [7:42pm] JedBrensinger: sean: would you know if elysha will be joining us [7:42pm] seanabrahams_: Jed: She's in the room with me, so she's semi-present [7:43pm] JedBrensinger: that works [7:43pm] seanabrahams_: and I am logging this, so you guys don't have to worry about that [7:43pm] mike_ray: Jed: should I continue? [7:43pm] mike_ray: seanabrahams: excellent! [7:43pm] highermonkey: Si, senor [7:44pm] JedBrensinger: yeah [7:44pm] mike_ray: so in one of his works Skinner was said to be a regular listener to a particularly popular christian preacher [7:44pm] mike_ray: this preacher would say things like 'you say you can't control your drinking...' [7:45pm] mike_ray: so then are you saying you can't control your own arm? [7:45pm] mike_ray: and I guess that resonated with skinner, I don't know [7:45pm] mike_ray: So Skinner's conception of self-control was expansive and highly developed [7:45pm] mike_ray: in Walden Two it was one of the central mechanisms for the gentle government [7:45pm] mike_ray: the planners and managers had to do little since the members governed themselves [7:46pm] mike_ray: any questions so far? [7:46pm] seanabrahams_: I'm good [7:46pm] Jessica0: nope [7:46pm] JedBrensinger: good [7:47pm] mike_ray: so since Skinner wrote Walden Two the science of human behavior (as he called it) evolved into two main branches [7:47pm] highermonkey: When we discuss self control, our emotions are our worst enemy, would you agree (open question)? [7:47pm] mike_ray: the experimental analysis of behavior (EAB) and applied behavior analysis (ABA) [7:47pm] mike_ray: higher: I am not sure that I would characterize the emotions as being apart from us [7:48pm] mike_ray: however, if that allowed for more effective self-control it might prove to be a useful way to characterize it [7:48pm] mike_ray: some emotions are 'enemies' and some are 'allies'? [7:48pm] highermonkey: and behaviorists don't exactly like the approach of us composed of separate parts, fighting it our. [7:48pm] mike_ray: highermonkey: does that work for you? [7:49pm] mike_ray: behaviorism is very "relational" [7:49pm] highermonkey: mas o menos [7:49pm] seanabrahams_: explain "relational" please [7:49pm] mike_ray: the actual means to implement effective self-control is part of my current area: self-control present [7:49pm] seanabrahams_: in this sense [7:50pm] mike_ray: relational means that it is rather false to think of a reinforcer as a thing or quality of a thing without reference to its relationship to something else [7:50pm] mike_ray: some critics of behavior analysis call it "m&m psychology" because it used to use candy reinforcers [7:50pm] mike_ray: but what these critics failed to see what the *relationship* of candy to behavior is a powerful functional relationship [7:51pm] mike_ray: the m&m is a humble candy, but as a powerful reinforcer is possesses a quality that is quite beyond its green pellet like nature [7:51pm] mike_ray: this relational quality is not evident to the eye [7:51pm] mike_ray: it is hard to see and that is what Skinner's position tries to convey [7:51pm] seanabrahams_: gotcha [7:51pm] highermonkey: but to the mouth, most elementary [7:52pm] mike_ray: highermoneky: where it melts [7:52pm] mike_ray: so the movement of EAB & ABA towards a powerful technology of self-control has been problematic [7:52pm] highermonkey: the journals? [7:52pm] mike_ray: behavior analysis moved along with lots of opposition and this perhaps hindered its growth [7:52pm] mike_ray: the journals JEAB and JABA reflect the fields generally [7:53pm] mike_ray: although there are many journals I am using EAB and ABA to reflect the field as a whole [7:53pm] mike_ray: EAB - more experimental/basic and often using pigeons (sometimes rats, sometimes humans), while ABA is applied, usually human subjects, and attempting to discover solutions to practical problems [7:54pm] mike_ray: So there have been many self-control studies using humans, pigeons, rats over the years [7:54pm] mike_ray: the way that skinner characterized it - as a means to reduce guilt - didn't translate into an experimental practice [7:55pm] mike_ray: so Ainslie and later Rachlin and Green developed a "self-control paradigm" which suggested that in a situation with two choices [7:55pm] mike_ray: one choice leads to a smaller, less delayed reinforcer [7:55pm] mike_ray: and one choice leads to a larger, more delayed reinforcer [7:55pm] mike_ray: preference for the smaller, less delayed reinforcer (often called the SS for "shorter smaller") is impulsive [7:56pm] mike_ray: while preference for the larger, more delayed reinforcer (called the LL for "longer later") is 'self-controlled' [7:56pm] mike_ray: so this has been one of the dominant self-control paradigms in EAB/ABA since the 1970s [7:56pm] mike_ray: it has been quite useful and interesting things have been discovered [7:57pm] mike_ray: for a variety of reasons the area of self-control has not been an area with a lot of growth [7:57pm] mike_ray: I can only speculate as to why [7:57pm] mike_ray: Mark Dixon also did a lot of work on self-control in a variety of settings - animal, human, children - and works on gambling self-control research as well [7:57pm] seanabrahams left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [7:58pm] mike_ray: so the current state of self-control is a long way from a mature effective technology like Skinner imagined it in Walden Two [7:58pm] mike_ray: however, the outline of an effective technology is there [7:58pm] mike_ray: any questions? [7:59pm] seanabrahams_: No [7:59pm] highermonkey: a good app might be instruction on how to stop itching. [7:59pm] mike_ray: I'll continue then [7:59pm] Jessica0: in the gambling experiements, were the participants able to reduce their gambling behavior? [7:59pm] mike_ray: well itching is not a very well defined behavior [8:00pm] mike_ray: I have not read Dixon's gambling work specifically, but I know that is an area of research for him. Most of the work I've seen showed some effect so I'd guess "yes" but I am not sure [8:00pm] mike_ray: They set up "labs" with slot-machines and roulette tables [8:00pm] Jessica0: That methodology may be a place to draw ideas from. [8:00pm] highermonkey: repeated light abrasive motion of fingernails [8:00pm] mike_ray: this might have been when he was at University Nevada at Reno [8:01pm] mike_ray: He is at Southern Illinois University now I think and I think he moving towards physical therapy and addictions (gambling is an addiction tho') [8:01pm] mike_ray: Jessica0: yes, it could help develop an effective technology [8:01pm] Jessica0: scratching is usually defined as contact between the nails and the skin which leave a red mark for at least a minute. Or that break skin and cause bleeding. Or something like that. [8:01pm] mike_ray: one study he did was using a distraction task to help subjects be able to tolerate a delay to reinforcement [8:02pm] mike_ray: highermonkey: the problem is not that the topography of itching is ill defined, the functional problem is ill defined. Do you want to stop touching your own skin (the act of scratching)? Or do you want the subjective sense of skin irritation to go away ('the itch')? [8:03pm] mike_ray: scratching is automatically reinforcing and often quickly which makes it highly powerful [8:03pm] Jessica0: That issue just came up with a friend of mine who has somewhat severe poison oak. [8:03pm] mike_ray: however much itching is due to specific causes (e.g. wool clothing, poison ivy) [8:04pm] highermonkey: Well, the scratching prolonges the itching. If the scratching could be trained away, we hope, the itching might follow [8:04pm] mike_ray: yes, drugs can be used to reduce the severity of the stimulis (e.g. calamine lotion) [8:04pm] mike_ray: if you wanted to take the lead of the dixon study you could use a distraction task to avoid itching [8:05pm] mike_ray: you can use a task that occupies your hands (typing/gaming) that makes it harder to scratch [8:05pm] Jessica0: And a different sensation can substitute for an itch - such as a slap. Training the replacement then becomes the issue. [8:05pm] mike_ray: yes, I 've heard of light slapping which can be less of a problem to the skin [8:05pm] mike_ray: an "alternative behavior" [8:05pm] highermonkey: I've done that, and found some success. Nothing complete [8:06pm] mike_ray: highermonkey: toxicity is sometimes an issue in itching, are you consuming anything that might be toxic? [8:06pm] seanabrahams_: Or, you can remove whatever it is that is causing the itch [8:06pm] mike_ray: so there are many approaches to attempt to control physical action [8:07pm] Jessica0: Or use the cone necklace that cats use! Just kidding. [8:07pm] mike_ray: Skinner offered a taxonomy of methods in his Science and Human Behavior [8:07pm] highermonkey: cortisone is usually good for poison oak, but also drys the skin and depresses the immune system [8:07pm] mike_ray: Jessica0: I'd pay to see that on Mike! [8:07pm] Jessica0: [8:07pm] mike_ray: that is the problem with a lot of drug solutions to behavior problems - side effects [8:07pm] mike_ray: water contamination was one problem that I posted about [8:08pm] mike_ray: moreover they tend to be short-lived, so unless the behavior problem goes away the drug use must be more or less "permanent" [8:08pm] mike_ray: are we good on that? shall I continue? [8:08pm] Jessica0: yup [8:08pm] highermonkey: yup [8:08pm] mike_ray: cool beans [8:08pm] JedBrensinger: fine here [8:09pm] seanabrahams_: Please do [8:09pm] mike_ray: So the next phase is "the future" [8:09pm] mike_ray: Skinner's conception of Walden Two as a paradise (I'd call it a "Heaven") operated with the machinery of self control [8:09pm] mike_ray: is opposed to the less well developed reality of EAB/ABA self-control research [8:10pm] mike_ray: If we are to achieve a Walden Two as Skinner conceptualized it in his novel there needs to be more research on self-control [8:10pm] mike_ray: Several researchers have suggested a means to help provide inspiration for research and help it to stay focused on practical problems [8:10pm] mike_ray: (e.g. itching) [8:10pm] mike_ray: this method is self-experimentation [8:11pm] mike_ray: self-experimentation does not command a lot of respect in the journals [8:11pm] highermonkey: always a fun evening [8:11pm] mike_ray: like JEAB/JABA [8:11pm] mike_ray: self-experimentation is a fun evening? [8:11pm] highermonkey: depends on the experimental methods [8:11pm] Jessica0: maybe if you are trying to find out which kind of cake you like the best. [8:12pm] highermonkey: science must know [8:12pm] mike_ray: indeed it must [8:12pm] mike_ray: so if we were to be seriously interested in moving the science of self-control towards Walden Two levels [8:12pm] seanabrahams_: That reminds me [8:12pm] mike_ray: and well beyond the current levels [8:13pm] mike_ray: ? [8:13pm] highermonkey: The question is not if self experimentation is publishable, but does it work. Who cares who beleives us? [8:13pm] mike_ray: well self-experimentation provides its own data [8:13pm] mike_ray: it is publishable [8:13pm] seanabrahams_: I purchased http://selfexperimenter.com/ and http://selfexperimenter.org/ and plan to put up a web site to facilitate Self Experimentation [8:14pm] mike_ray: just not in the "top tier" jouirnals [8:14pm] mike_ray: seanabrahams: nice! [8:14pm] mike_ray: not now, as far as I can see [8:14pm] mike_ray: however, Skinner outlines whole areas of self-control research that are largely unexplored in Science and Human Behavior [8:15pm] mike_ray: the areas that have been well explored, the Rachlin/Green/Ainslie research mostly encompasses what might be called "physical self-control" [8:15pm] mike_ray: The role of behavioral activation as a means to "self-activate" might be an area of self control worth pursuing [8:16pm] mike_ray: Christopher Martell wrote a work book on this very approach - essentially how to self-implement your own depression therapy [8:16pm] mike_ray: Self control research might be publishable (with self-experimentation) in many journals though [8:17pm] mike_ray: although those that want statistics will want you to do some number crunching [8:17pm] mike_ray: those who want or allow small-n research will want at least a few replications, perhaps 2-3 other people [8:18pm] mike_ray: Self-experimentation should allow us to move forward in 'bridging the gap' between what is needed and what we have [8:18pm] mike_ray: any questions? [8:18pm] seanabrahams_: in terms of what [8:18pm] mike_ray: anything [8:19pm] mike_ray: so if there are no questions, that concludes my talk [8:19pm] highermonkey: self experimentation can't be as objective as research where experimenter and subject are different people [8:19pm] mike_ray: why not? [8:19pm] mike_ray: objectivity is not a function of discrete people, but of the impartiality of the data [8:20pm] mike_ray: where data collection is usually least problematic is when it is automated [8:20pm] mike_ray: in a sense the early rat work of skinner was "self-experimentation" by the rats [8:20pm] highermonkey: in describing your own responses to two treatments, if you have a bias toward one, its hard to say that that didn't color your own subjective notion of which was more successful [8:21pm] mike_ray: well the same controls that defeat bias in published work could be used in non-publised work [8:21pm] mike_ray: or self-experimented work [8:21pm] highermonkey: how to build cntrols into self experimentation? [8:22pm] mike_ray: if you use a machine method of data collection (i.e. word count in a word processor) is anyone likely to say "Mike is highly biased in his readings of his word count"? [8:22pm] Jessica0: and perhaps that bias needs to be explored because it is pointing us to the methodology that actually works best... [8:22pm] mike_ray: ) [8:22pm] mike_ray: In some studies they have used a "friend" to help sign off on the data collection [8:22pm] Jessica0: I have "friends" [8:23pm] mike_ray: for example, a person runs up a number on a pedometer and then - with a friend - they both look at it and write it down [8:23pm] mike_ray: Jessica0: I am thinking of spouses and/or housemates which I am calling "friends" [8:24pm] mike_ray: but it could be a work associate, boss, or anyone depending on the circumstance (if you are on the appalachian trail and you want someone to corroborate your data...?) [8:24pm] highermonkey: At least self experiments save the trouble of being double blind [8:24pm] Jessica0: I know. I'm just being (not) funny. [8:24pm] mike_ray: being funny on irc is tricky [8:25pm] Jessica0: sorry [8:25pm] mike_ray: I think you could set up blind controls for self-experimentation [8:25pm] mike_ray: you make up long random numbers to mark you vials with and give them to yourself without knowing (at the time) which one is active and which one is placebo [8:26pm] mike_ray: when you are done you "decode" it with your original key of random-values-to-active-or-placebo [8:27pm] mike_ray: so anything else? [8:27pm] highermonkey: naw [8:27pm] mike_ray: who is giving next week's talk [8:27pm] mike_ray: ? [8:28pm] seanabrahams_: this is elysha [8:28pm] seanabrahams_: I have a question [8:28pm] seanabrahams_: which I may have missed [8:28pm] mike_ray: hi elsyha [8:28pm] seanabrahams_: what exactly is the relationship between self-experimentation and self control? [8:28pm] highermonkey: howdy [8:28pm] mike_ray: elysha [8:28pm] seanabrahams_: hi Mike, mike [8:29pm] seanabrahams_: why did we get on this tangent basically? [8:29pm] mike_ray: self-experimentation is a means to avoid the sluggish development of self-control research [8:29pm] seanabrahams_: oh [8:29pm] mike_ray: I am suggesting it as a means for us to possibly move self-control research beyond the current level which is "sub Walden Two" [8:29pm] seanabrahams_: so... the future of self control is self experimentation [8:29pm] mike_ray: possibly! [8:30pm] mike_ray: I think that is the route we would go as Waldenists [8:31pm] mike_ray: I could go on [8:31pm] mike_ray: or is that enough? [8:31pm] Jessica0: I need to go. I haven't eaten yet. [8:31pm] mike_ray: so who wants to give a talk next week - Jed? [8:31pm] mike_ray: by Jessica, thanks for coming [8:31pm] seanabrahams_: bye jessica [8:31pm] JedBrensinger: bye jessica [8:31pm] Jessica0: np! Thanks for the talk. [8:32pm] highermonkey: later, y'alls, I'm headin home! [8:32pm] mike_ray: later mike, good luck with the itching [8:32pm] JedBrensinger: thanks for coming mike [8:33pm] highermonkey: thanks for the symposiette gents. The itching was mostly hypothetical [8:33pm] highermonkey left the chat room. ("Java user signed off") [8:33pm] mike_ray: well I'll leave things up to you all, thanks for having me [8:34pm] seanabrahams_: Perhaps [8:34pm] mike_ray: I guess we'll work out the next speaker later? [8:34pm] seanabrahams_: Actully, I'll do next week [8:34pm] seanabrahams_: I'll talk about Self-Experimentation [8:34pm] mike_ray: that sounds like an excellent follow up [8:34pm] mike_ray: I look forward to it [8:34pm] mike_ray: good night all [8:34pm] mike_ray left the chat room. ("peace") [8:34pm] seanabrahams_: cheers [8:34pm] JedBrensinger: night [8:35pm] Jessica0 left the chat room. ("Java user signed off") [8:35pm] seanabrahams_: Unless you wanted to present something Jed? [8:35pm] seanabrahams_: Thanks for moderating [8:35pm] JedBrensinger: no that's fine with me [8:35pm] JedBrensinger: so you've got this logged, do you want to post it somehow [8:35pm] JedBrensinger: or do we have plans to do something with it [8:35pm] seanabrahams_: Yeah, I will figure it out [8:36pm] JedBrensinger: ok thanks [8:36pm] seanabrahams_: Post the highlights to the google group [8:36pm] seanabrahams_: with a link to an HTML version of the log, or something [8:37pm] JedBrensinger: that works [8:37pm] seanabrahams_: How's About Behaviorism? [8:38pm] JedBrensinger: just finished it today [8:38pm] JedBrensinger: another good one [8:39pm] seanabrahams_: is your AB class large? [8:39pm] JedBrensinger: about 18 [8:40pm] JedBrensinger: not quite as much discussion as id like, but [8:41pm] seanabrahams_: you should talk to your prof [8:41pm] seanabrahams_: or Mike Ray [8:41pm] JedBrensinger: yeah [8:41pm] seanabrahams_: These meetings are perfect to bring up questions [8:42pm] JedBrensinger: so have any suggestions of what i should talk about for these meetings [8:43pm] JedBrensinger: anything you think would be interesting [8:43pm] seanabrahams_: I actually wanted to talk about Ecotopia Emerging [8:43pm] seanabrahams_: I'd like to know [8:43pm] JedBrensinger: oh yeah [8:44pm] seanabrahams_: Have you talked with anyone in your class, or your professor, about the Google Group? [8:44pm] JedBrensinger: no, not yet [8:45pm] JedBrensinger: not as entusiastic as i'd hoped they would be about the subject [8:45pm] seanabrahams_: Yeah, discovering how to talk to people about it is important and not easy [8:45pm] JedBrensinger: here we have an interested audience [8:46pm] JedBrensinger: not a group of people who have to be there to get a diploma [8:46pm] seanabrahams_: Yes. I'd like to try a Sunday meeting [8:46pm] seanabrahams_: to get more people [8:46pm] JedBrensinger: oh yeah [8:46pm] JedBrensinger: anyone in general [8:47pm] JedBrensinger: or just you think more might show up [8:47pm] seanabrahams_: like J and Roger [8:47pm] JedBrensinger: has anyone talked to them about it [8:47pm] seanabrahams_: Yes, both are unavailable on Monday [8:47pm] seanabrahams_: Sunday morning may work well though [8:48pm] seanabrahams_: BTW, I recommend Ecotopia Emerging [8:48pm] JedBrensinger: yeah [8:48pm] JedBrensinger: i was happy with the turnout tonight [8:49pm] seanabrahams_: Me too [8:49pm] seanabrahams_: We were 6 total, which is great [8:49pm] seanabrahams_: We haven't even done any outreach [8:49pm] JedBrensinger: yeah previously it's been a couple of us [8:49pm] JedBrensinger: but tonight everyone made it at once [8:50pm] seanabrahams_: Yeah [8:50pm] seanabrahams_: It's encouraging [8:50pm] seanabrahams_: Your participation has been really great [8:50pm] seanabrahams_: It came at the perfect time [8:50pm] JedBrensinger: oh yeah [8:50pm] JedBrensinger: had you been having regular meetings before that [8:51pm] seanabrahams_: We tried but failed to follow through [8:51pm] seanabrahams_: I think we tried once [8:51pm] JedBrensinger: i'd seen the irc announcement, but never knew of a designated time until i started coming [8:51pm] seanabrahams_: Well, everyone else that showed up knows one another personally so we would have "meetings" all the time in just talking to one another [8:52pm] seanabrahams_: This is perfect though [8:52pm] seanabrahams_: Your showing up proved its utility [8:52pm] seanabrahams_: It's a rule in starting a group that you always stick to your plans no matter what [8:53pm] JedBrensinger: yeah [8:53pm] JedBrensinger: it's been nice being able to talk to people other than the forum [8:53pm] seanabrahams_: If you announce something like a meet up you have to show up, regardless if no one else shows up [8:54pm] seanabrahams_: Someday someone will show up [8:54pm] JedBrensinger: yeah [8:54pm] JedBrensinger: i did, so there's hope [8:54pm] JedBrensinger: and i'm not generally a very outgoing person [8:55pm] seanabrahams_: I too used to be quite shy, but as I get older I get more outgoing [8:55pm] seanabrahams_: probably because of "behavioral activation", meaning I just got out more and talked to more people [8:55pm] seanabrahams_: I met Mike at a Unix Users Group meeting [8:55pm] seanabrahams_: Mike Ray [8:55pm] JedBrensinger: oh [8:56pm] JedBrensinger: is that how you got started in W2 [8:57pm] seanabrahams_: it is [8:57pm] seanabrahams_: Well, actually, I knew Mike for a while [8:58pm] seanabrahams_: and I would bring up wanting to start a community and he was a big fan of W2 and told me about it [8:58pm] JedBrensinger: that's cool [8:58pm] JedBrensinger: nice that all of you are relatively close to each other [8:59pm] seanabrahams_: What's going on in the world, politically and economically, makes a strong case for starting a W2 ASAP [8:59pm] seanabrahams_: We'll need to get some people in your area involved too [8:59pm] JedBrensinger: yeah [8:59pm] JedBrensinger: we need to get people started in thinking that way [8:59pm] seanabrahams_: We need to flyer [8:59pm] seanabrahams_: flier [9:00pm] JedBrensinger: yeah [9:01pm] JedBrensinger: so then you brought elysha to the group? [9:02pm] seanabrahams_: Yeah, I exposed her to it and she liked it [9:02pm] JedBrensinger: just trying to figure out what brought everyone to it [9:03pm] seanabrahams_: Jessica and Mike go to school together [9:03pm] seanabrahams_: Mike Minton (highermonkey) went to school with Mike Ray and I [9:04pm] JedBrensinger: interesting [9:04pm] seanabrahams_: J, Roger, Martin, yourself all came via the Internet [9:05pm] seanabrahams_: I need to post fliers around town [9:05pm] JedBrensinger: well that definately has the potential to reach the most people [9:05pm] seanabrahams_: There are lots of ways to outreach [9:07pm] seanabrahams_: We'll get there [9:08pm] JedBrensinger: i liked the idea someone had posted before [9:08pm] JedBrensinger: about possibly putting a business card with the website on it in books [9:09pm] JedBrensinger: so do you think we shoud expand the meeting times [9:09pm] JedBrensinger: make longer, add more [9:11pm] seanabrahams_: No, I think an hour is good [9:11pm] seanabrahams_: and then if people want to stick around they can [9:12pm] JedBrensinger: yeah [9:12pm] seanabrahams_: I just want to experiment with other times [9:12pm] JedBrensinger: yeah [9:13pm] JedBrensinger: it's nice to get as many people online at once as possible [9:16pm] JedBrensinger: well, i'm gonna get going now [9:16pm] JedBrensinger: it's after midnight here and i have an 8:30 class [9:20pm] JedBrensinger: nice talking to you [9:20pm] JedBrensinger: see you next week [9:20pm] seanabrahams_: Sorry, I was away [9:21pm] seanabrahams_: You too Jed [9:21pm] seanabrahams_: See you next week [9:21pm] JedBrensinger: bye [9:23pm] JedBrensinger left the chat room. ("Java user signed off")